Tell me Johnnie how you used to play and demonstrate.

Well I was used to playing blues and when Chuck Berry and I first hooked up and blues was something [plays piano] that was the feel of the blues and then, ah, when I got hooked up with Chuck and we was playing hillbilly or whatever, it had a different feel to it and everything which, ah, went similar to this [plays piano]. Well that was, ah, feel of the hillbilly tune that Chuck was, the "Maybelline" tune.

Do it a little shorter, for each example. We'll film a close-up on your hands. Could you do the same thing.

When I first started out, I mean, ah, playing the blues on the sound of [plays piano] that was the sound of blues and what I was used to playing, ah, you know before I hooked up with Chuck and then we got together and Chuck put out the hillbilly's tune - "Maybelline" which went similar to this. [plays piano]. And then he would start out singing it and we'd go from there. The rest is history.

Tell me about the tour after "Maybelline" became a big hit, how many nights and what kind of places you went to and who the audiences were.

Well the audiences was mostly young kids. The tour started out in New York at the Paramount Theater, the Alan Freed Rock and Roll Show and then it went cross country from New York all the way to Florida, I think it was Miami, Florida we ended up, well the tour ended up in Texas, that's where everybody broke up and went their separate ways. But the audience we had to play, in some places we played we had to play twice; once for the black and once for the white. In a lot of places we went to play we couldn't even get hotel rooms. Sometimes some of the residents of where we played, black families, would let us stay with them the night and sometimes we'd have to sleep in the bus, whatever. And that was about the only, I'd say only disaster the two of us finding places to stay at times and some places where we played we had to play two shows, you know, playing two shows for the price of one. So this, and it would last 101 one nighters. We only missed maybe about two on account of the weather. And one place we played in Texas the band was playing over here and they had cows and horses and things right next to you it was like in a barn or something.

Was that common in the fifties where you'd have to play for two separate audiences?

Very common, very common especially down southern, you know down South way like in Texas and Mississippi and places like that we had to play two, two gigs. But… the further North we come the more, you know, more cooperative we got with just playing on job and the mixed audience. But down there we had to, say, two different audiences white and black.

What about St. Louis when Chuck was with the band was that mostly black audiences or mixed?

Well when we were, before we made "Maybelline" it was a black audience we were playing over in East St. Louis and this was mostly a black town, you know, where we were playing. But after we made the record "Maybelline" and what not and we played a place like Keel Auditorium or whatever and you'd have a mixed audience there. Actually it was more white than it was colored.

What do you think it was about "Maybelline" that caught the attention of the white kids in the country?

Well I think the, the main reason that it caught so well that there was a black fellow doing it, after they found out, you know, there was a black person doing it. And then on the second hand it was a type of music that usually black people didn't do 'cause it was on the country and western style, whatever. And, as I say, people was real surprised when they saw that it was a black artist that was doing this. So I think that caught, and, ah, it had a different feel from what they were used to hearing. As I say, probably 'cause always looking for something new and this was very new to them, believe me. So I think that's what really put it over.

When you went up to Chicago to record "Maybelline" and the other songs at the Chess Studio, tell me about that. What were the Chess brothers like to work with and what were they trying to get from this music?

Okay, we, when we got to Leonard, they had a very, very small studio in fact they had a one-track machine in the, the room was very small, they had an old upright like this. But the brothers themselves, I mean they knew about recording 'cause I guess they be already did a lot of it. So we went in the studio about 8 o'clock that morning to do "Maybelline" and we came out around 1:30 the next morning, just for that one record because the things we would do, we had to do it so many times, they would take the best of each time that we would do it and would cut it in on that until we got what Leonard Chess wanted. So as I said it took quite a while and the, the blues part we did like two or three times and that was it. But "Maybelline" was much different. And Leonard Chess know just how he wanted it. Chuck was new at this thing, at recording, I was new, the drummer was new, so we made quite a few mistakes, you know. It took just that long to correct these mistakes where they could put it on tape and make a master tape out of it and send it off and have it pressed. We fin., when we finally finished with it and he say, well this is a take. And it was so odd and whatever that when they sent it off, you know, it takes some time, four or five weeks for a master tape to even go into pressing. They did this all in about two weeks, the record was out on the streets. So I think it was very odd to get it out so quick and not knowing anything about recording. Then after that, some time we'd be on the road and Chuck would write a song, I mean write the lyrics, like, say, we're playing here tonight in St. Louis, we're going to Chicago tomorrow. He'd write the lyrics of the song between here and Chicago and when we get to Chicago we would go in Leonard Chess and he and I would put the music together and make a record just like that. I think in his book he was telling people that he and I could communicate with this by looking at each other and me playing so many, he copied it on his guitar. As a matter of fact Keith Richards had a statement in - what's that Rolling Stone magazine about a lot of Chuck's playing with, my playing off the piano. But it worked out fine so I don't think he ever had a bad seller back in those times. But now he seems to be struggling to get a hit out there now. I don't even know if he's trying any more 'cause, as I say, I've been out on my own now for about five years so.

Maybe you could start out saying that Chuck had the lyric to the song "School Days" and then I came up with this.

Well we're on our way from New York to Baltimore I think it was and it had been about, pretty close to two months since we had made a recording. And Chuck says, about time for us to get something else on tape, you know, he said, I got some lyrics here but I don't know what kind of music to put behind it. I said, well, I got a little idea and we see how it work out and I when we get the bottom going. We we got the bottom going and got in the studio and I, I said, how do you like this for an intro, you know? [plays piano]. He say, oh, that will work out just fine, you know. So we rehearsed that two or three times and, ah, he come up with the song and it all blended into that, you know. And he could do this on the guitar too so the times that I wasn't playing with him, he should do the same thing but keep the intro the same. So that's how we would do a lot of the songs.

Tell me that song was "School Days".

Yeah, the name of that was "School Days" right. I think.

Could you say, that's how "School Days" got written.

Okay, and do you want me to run down the whole thing?

No.

And that's how "School Days" come about, just off of that intro and whatever and it blend in fine with what he had already, you know, got together with the lyrics.

We've been talking about how a band would have to play to separate audiences during this time in the fifties, touring around the country and especially in the South. In '56 or so when Elvis started to hit there was a lot more uproar you heard around the country. What do you think was going on? People were smashing records, there was the segregationist group saying rock and roll was going to be the root of all evil. What do you think was going on in the country then?

Well I really couldn't answer that, I don't know if it was between Chuck and Elvis or the type of music they were playing. Some people rated Elvis about Chuck and just vice versa. But they was having this payola stuff back in that time and whatever. And I think that had a lot to do with, this payola who's record was played the most and whatever. So actually that's about the best I can do with that question.

Did you ever have any problems with people saying this kind of music was the devil's music and children shouldn't be listening to it.

You got a lot of that from the elderly people. They were saying, well, they didn't use devil's music but they saying this was filthy music, you know. And some of the lyrics and whatever wasn't suitable for the younger kids to hear which I couldn't see nothing wrong with the lyrics they were done and whatever. But, that was just what we were facing back at that time. I wonder what they're saying about the lyrics now a days. They're outrageous now, sure enough really.

At that time in the fifties it seemed like the white teenagers were really going for big beat music and a lot of rhythm and blues derived music for the first time in a big way. Do you think that's true?

Well I know they had big turnouts with the younger kids and I say they, they was just having a big time off of this type, the, the beat as they called it or whatever. And, ah, the music that were playing was actually what they wanted to hear. So I guess that's what put it over as big as it went over.

We've been talking to people how rock and roll, so-called, Alan Freed coined the name in the media, where did that music comes from. Where do you think it came from?

Well as I said earlier the music that, ah, people like Fats Domino and whatever, Carl Perkins, whatever put out, it wasn't called rock and roll at the time but that's all it was. And I think what really brought in the light was when we did the show at the Paramount with Alan Freed Show and the kids got, really got into it popular singers and rocking and reeling and whatever. And Alan Freed was out on the stage, say, just look at them rocking and reeling and rolling and going. He says, that's what we'll call this music, rock and roll. So I think that's where the biggest term of rock and roll come in. It wasn't so much as the music as the way the kids was reacting to what they were hearing. That's the way I see it.

Do you think what people call rock and roll is any different really from rhythm and blues?

No, I don't, I mean as I said, it's just playing it fast with tempo in some cases and, and it's slow because okay, the blues, that seems to be taking over everything now. You could play the same thing on the blues like [plays piano] and put it in a fast tempo [plays piano] and kids would hear this and they would just go wild and you're playing nothing but an up tempo blues. And they were say, they're rocking and rolling. So that's the only definition I can come up with from my experience of playing for audi... different audience, you know. And most of the audience I played like when I go to, ah, over in Europe and whatever, you see more young teenagers at these turnouts than you do elderly people at these rock, these outdoor festivals and whatever. I'm going to Australia, June the 12th of this year. I'll be over there for two weeks. And I went over there a year before last and the whole, the ten cities that I toured was most the young people there. Never did tour one that had mixed like the young and middle-ages or older, they were all young people. And they were asking for the blues so actually they wanted more blues than what they considered rock and roll. And that was right up my ally 'cause that's what I can play best. So everything went fine. I hope the tour this time be as successful as it was the first time.

Thinking back to the mid fifties era, when you first heard the music of Elvis Presley what did you think of it?

Well I thought he was just playing some downright, as they, funky blues, he was just, all his body work he was doing, twisting and turning and going on, but his music had the boogie-woogie type of beat to it except songs like "Heartbreak Hotel" and whatever. But on the whole he was playing the blues for me.

Did you feel like he was covering black music the way a Pat Boone was or did he really have some of his own feeling?

I think that was his own feeling.

Can you say that over again in your own words?

Yeah, I think Elvis had his own, after, I mean listening to the type of music that he was listening to back at that time, I think he developed his own idea of the music that he wanted to play. And this was his type of music that he was playing and it wasn't no carbon copy of nobodies. Sure, he sang a song like "Nothing But A Hound Dog" whatever, which was already out but he had a different feeling to his music than artists that put it out. I think this was his own feeling, believe me.

How did you feel about the white cover versions of other songs like things that Pat Boone would do or Bill Haley would do, did it seem like they were ripping off the original music or were they really helping to popularize?

I think they were helping to popularize it because as I say, it was already out there. And the different versions that people would hear would cause, you know, would cause their attention to listen to it more than just hearing one version of it. That's the way I see that.

I've been asking everybody to say their name to the camera.

My name is Johnnie Johnson. Do you think they'll ___ that.

Say it again, say you used to play with Chuck Berrry.

Oh, my name is Johnnie Johnson and former Chuck Berry's piano player and quite a few other, Larry Kane, whatever. Now I'm out on my own. Hope to be successful as I was playing with them.

Thank you for that. Tell me about Ike Turner's band in St. Louis. He had a band and your band were the two biggest bands around East St. Louis, right.

At one time, yes.

Tell me about that and how his music was different from what you were doing or was it the same?

No, it, it, he was, we were playing the same music but Ike had a bigger, a much larger band than mine plus he had horns in his band which give it a bigger bottom sound, you know, and I just had the rhythm instruments: piano, bass, drum and guitar. And we were playing the same type of music but, as I say, he had a bigger band so he had a bigger sound. So therefore I guess he, he got more attention or more jobs than I. I was most like the stationary one place, the person I was playing for. He didn't want me playing any place else 'cause we had built up his club and also a name for my band also. So, ah, when Ike come to town, he came in, made a name for his self and played quite a few places and I used to play for a lot of private things more than clubs. So that's the difference in the music, only the bigger band sound I would say.

When Chuck was with you band you were playing some songs with more of a country flavor.

They were always country flavors believe me. He tried, Chuck did, wanted to balance things but they didn't go over nothing like his original, you know, his original tunes. And ah, I had got broke into where actually when I'd go sit in with some other band was playing jazz or something I'd get lost 'cause I, they're used to playing this rock and roll stuff. Really I had to kind of keep in touch with all type of music so, you know, I could work with any kind of band.

Tell me again what kind of music Chuck Berry always liked and would practice it.

Well when he joined, you know, when I hired him in my group we were playing, ah, just standard blues and whatever and Chuck couldn't, ah, he wasn't interested in that too much 'cause he had his own style that he was interested in which was country and western or hillbilly, whatever you want to call it. And I guess him figuring, ah, with this type music something different and he would get more attention because he had a lot of competition out there playing just regular songs, you know. So he, maybe he figured he wasn't good enough to play the type of music that was in style so he would create his own style as a black entertainer and get more attention to this. And it seemed like it worked out real nice for him. And the reason, ah, that, ah, you know, I stayed with him so long, I was just saying, he offered me opportunity to get out in the world to really see what it was all about. And, ah, to make more money, that was the bottom line. So instead of him learning my music I learned his music. And that's another point, by me growing up in West Virginia I was used to listening to country and western music too. Now this program I was telling you about early, that I would listen to KDK from Pittsburgh, big band music, well this was called Dawn Patrol and it didn't come on like 12 o'clock at night but up until then I was listening to the country and western music all the time. And it wasn't too much of a strain for me to play this since I played by ear and not by music, you know.