Well, an Earth, Wind and Fire show, it was, it was an event. And the show is scheduled to start at 8 o'clock, 8 p.m. But if you were going to an Earth, Wind and Fire show, it really starts for you that morning, because the enthusiasm when you had, if it's a Friday night show that you're going to, so I'm at work, but all day long, I'm thinking about the Earth, Wind and Fire show. I'm thinking about what I'm going to wear. Then the ritual that I must go through in dressing and preparing for this Earth, Wind -- because I must wear the right thing, I must have the right attitude, because I'm going to an Earth, Wind and Fire show. So it was that kind of an experience. And then to get to the arena and et caught up in the crowd and the enthusiasm and the things that were going on as you proceeded to go into the arena, you know, the, the, you would get caught up in that feeling, and then, anticipating, while you're there waiting for the show to start, and then when that curtains comes open, or when that announcer comes out and now ladies and gentlemen, Earth, Wind and Fire. I mean the roof would just go off the -- it, it was like a high, that's the way it was. And you would stand up and you wouldn't sit down until the show was all over. And then, and then you're hoping for an encore. Every now and then you might be fortunate enough to have an encore, but it was, it was an event. And it was the kind of a thing that Maurice White visualized this, and it got to the place that if you went this year, every other year them came, I've got to be there. That was the kind of enthusiasm. Not only that, from the standpoint of the record company, if you didn't have an album, you'd rush out and buy it. That's really what it was all about, to sell those albums.

Their show, what was the show itself like? You were talking about how they set a precedent for what … shows.

Well, uh, prior to Earth, Wind and Fire, and act really would come out on stage, on a regimented basis. They'd march out on stage and they would do a show and march off. That was it. No theatrics or anything. So Maurice White came up with the idea to stage a show, where there'd be all kinds of props, all kinds of unusual lightings, where here is maybe a big pyramid on the stage, and all of a sudden the pyramid would just open up, and then fire and smoke. Then would appear the group. And then they would perform. And then when it was all over, again, this loud explosion, smoke everywhere, and they would just disappear. And the crowd would just go wild. I mean it was, it was an event. It was a stage show. It was like the circus. There was all sorts of things that's going on. Even the costuming. They were not all dressed alike. Again, which was typical with a lot of black acts. You know, all black suits, all blue suits, all purple suits. Everybody was the same, everybody doing the same steps. But with Maurice White, everybody was dressed differently. Everybody was stepping in a different kind of a way. I mean you just, it was something going on in every inch of that stage. It was an event.

I just want to backtrack for a moment, if you could talk about "Soul Train", if you could describe what "Soul Train" was like, and if you could use like a comparison to "American Bandstand," what that show was.

Well, um, the "Soul Train" show and in terms of what it did for black music, it became a trendsetter. We found that youngsters in the community, the black community, they were looking at this show to find out what to dress, uh, I mean, how to dress. They were also looking at this show to see the very, the very latest acts that had come out, also to actually see a performance, a performance of their favorite act. Now, this show went into all of the major markets at that particular time. And this was the only way that a lot of our acts were able to get exposure. Sure, "American Bandstand" was in, was in existence, but very few of our acts, meaning our black acts, were able to get on "American Bandstand". So Don Cornelius opened his doors up to everybody. Any black act could get on Don's show. And once they got on, on that show, hey, that's a national show. Which meant that they had immediate national identification. It went into every major market, plus record sales.

When you talk about groups, Sly and the Family Stone was one of ... Now, they didn't fit into the, were they classified as a soul act ... Tell us about that.

Well, uh, the group Sly and the Family Stone. Well, number one, in my opinion, Sly Stone is like the Bach of rhythm. I mean the things that goes on in his head, what he hears in his head, and he was able to execute that on stage. Uh, now, just by virtue of the fact of their complexion, so they were in a category of a black act. But because of the music they played, the kind of music they played, they were able to sort of cross over both ways. A Sly Stone audience would be black folks and white folks. White folks grooved to Sly Stone just as the same as, as black folks. he was that kind of an individual, and CBS marketed him that way also. Now as I said, this fellow Ron Lexinberg, who headed the Epic division at that particular time, well, he was able to bridge that gap. He recognized, he recognized the abilities of a Sly Stone, and he knew that he'd be able to pick up on a certain number of white sales as a result of that. Also there was some Top 40 airplay with a Sly Stone. One of those unusual kinds of acts that received that kind of play for that particular time. So Sly was one of those acts that was accepted by black radio and white radio. No resistance at all.

I understand that Sly's manager…

Yes, well, David

I would say that, uh, should, Sly was unusually talented. But as a plus to that there was his manager, a fellow named David Kapralik, who was employed at CBS at one time. And when he left, well, even prior to leaving CBS he became Sly's manager. And David had a relationship with some of the major Top 40 radio stations throughout the entire country. And when Sly's product or his records were released, David would pick up a telephone and would get that record played on those radio stations. So that aided and assisted those records in a number of instances. So fortunately for Sly that David, or he had a manager with those kind of, that kind of a juice.

Talk about … the whole corporate thing. The competition perhaps, now -- [INAUDIBLE]. Was it CBS's ...

Well, in my opinion, I never felt that CBS was there to take a black business over, or to take a Philadelphia International over, not in my opinion. Now, again, following, uh, following the dictates of that Harvard study, the idea, the idea is to get that identification in the marketplace that we were a record company that's known for bringing hit product. So we eventually will bring our own, to sign to big red, big red meaning the CBS label, or signed a record to Epic Records. But I never felt that that was their intention was to move in and just take these companies over. Now, you know, we, we're mentioning Philadelphia International, and of course there were other companies there as well also. There were those talented boys from Teaneck, the Teaneck label, the Isley Brothers, they were so talented. So they were considered a custom label. They were distributed by CBS Records also. I mean, not only the Isley Brothers, I mean Clive Davis wanted them all. Holland, Holland and Dozier in Victus Records. They became one of the custom labels there at CBS. So Clive wanted them all. Now also, from a civic standpoint there was another little small record company, community based, out of Buffalo, New York, which is called the DeVille Record label. And the talent was rather short, but the commitment was very, very strong. And through Clive Davis and Bruce Lundvall, that company was given a distribution deal as a custom label, and we received product from them. But there was no question about it, Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, they dominated it with the hits that they came with. Whether it was Billy Paul's "Me and Mrs. Jones" and, uh, Billy Paul, "Me and Mrs. Jones", the uh, uh, naturally the O'Jays, Harold Melvin and the Blue Notes with Teddy Pendergrass, which was a very, very special act to me, because I was just so fond of them and their music. But again it was all through the genius of Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, the kinds of music. I would say the sweet music that they made. I would say it had a certain sweetness about it. Which gave us a little bit of a softer edge for black music, because it differed, it differed from the Motown sound, which was a harsher, a harsher cutting edge, but Philadelphia International, it had a sweetness about it, and it just spread throughout the entire country.

Now during this particular time, uh, Thom Bell certainly played an integral part in this entire scheme of things. Uh, the label itself was wholly owned by Kenny Gamble and, uh, and Leon Huff. But in terms of the writing, in terms of the arrangements, a lot of that sweetness came from Thom Bell, the things he heard in his head, and also that symphony orchestra from uh, from Philadelphia that he would bring in to put that certain sweetness. The string arrangements. So I would say that the sweetness primarily came from Thom Bell, not only for the Philadelphia International label but for the Philadelphia sound itself. Because there were quite a few things that Thom Bell was doing, writing that he was doing with a young lady named Linda Creed for other labels on other acts. So a lot of those acts coming out of Philadelph-, uh, Philadelphia, Thom Bell has his hand in what they were doing.

Let's talk about radio for a moment, because things began to change. Could you tell me what part Frankie Crocker played in the change …

Okay. Well, during this era of, of, uh, early '70s, we knew, we knew black radio as that, uh, that number on the far right hand of the dial with the weakest signal. But then along came a disk jockey that was completely different, he went against the grain. Here was a disk jockey that dared to play an album cut, he dared to play a record that was longer than three to four minutes long. This was a guy named Frankie Crocker. Frankie Crocker was a kind of a disk jockey that brought in, uh, I mean the soothing of his voice, the style of music that he played, and the way that he programmed his music. Uh, even myself, from a personal standpoint, when, when Frankie Crocker came on the air in the evening, I turned to his station, simply because you could tell the difference. I mean the records that he played, the way one would follow the other, the flow, what he had to say in between the records, the smoothness the silkiness of his voice. And now this feeling, this feeling, or that sound spread throughout the entire East Coast. It spread from New York into Philadelphia, and then it spread down as far as a station in Washington, DC, on the Howard University cam-, campus, WHUR-FM. Now these were also were, were, were FM stations which could afford to be a little bit more different, go a little bit further out on the edge. Well, Frankie perfected that. Earth, Wind and Fire took advantage of that. Maurice White saw the value of that. He personally visited that station in DC. WDAF-FM, … in Philadelphia, Maurice White personally visited that station with his entire group, and also in New York, there was Frankie Crocker. So that played a big part in establishing certain acts, especially on the East Coast. And it made good business sense too because the bulk of the people live on the East Coast. So you break it, you spread it on the East Coast, then you spread it to the West Coast. But primarily let's break it on the East Coast first.

Tell me about the quiet storm. Did you ...

Yes, yes, the quiet storm, the quiet storm, that was in the beginning of the '70s. And basically, you know, that's the soft music, you may or may not hear it in a doctor's office, or elevator music, but it was quiet storm music. I would say it was a little, it was about two or three notches above doctor's office music, or what they call, what we called at that particular time a good music, or an easy-listening station. It was several notches above that. And there are a lot of album cuts that you could not play say on a traditional R and B radio station, because in most instances a black jock, he wanted his station to be up, he wanted it to be lively. He wanted his listeners to stay tuned in to his station. But with quiet storm, it was somewhat different. You didn't exactly do that. With the quiet storm sound you were able to go a little bit further, a little bit more innovative with quiet storm. And then immediately, record companies zeroed in on that. They started supplying those quiet storm stations with that type of music, because then they knew that those disk jockeys such as a Frankie Crocker would exploit that music, and the idea, the idea is to get your records, get your music played on the music, so we the consumer will hear it, and once we hear it, the thinking is we will rush out and buy it, and that's another sale. Because the bottom line, we want to sell records.

I would think the …

Yes, yes. Well, even just the quiet storm hour was over into the night. Usually you're at home with your lady, you're sipping wine, you're kicking back, you know, it put you in a romantic mood. So it was very, very good for that. And Frankie Crocker, to me, he was somewhat of a romantic himself, you know. So it was just natural for him to follow that line. And this is what you would do. Now, not only that, even in terms of the quiet storm music, there was certain degrees of it. Because early evening, there was a certain phase, and as you went over into the later, the latter part of the evening, as you were settling down with your lady, and you listened to the quiet storm station with your champagne or your wine, it puts both of you in that mood.

In terms of making music, and in terms of one, recognizing or feeling the pulse of society, I would say it was Curtis Mayfield. The things that he was writing, the kinds of music, the things that he was hearing in his head, I think it was the, uh, with Curtis Mayfield, and then he was dealing with the, that group out of Chicago, primarily I guess the things he had experienced there in Chicago. But then, the foresight that he had, the predictions that he was making in his music. And even today, you can go back to listen to some of Curtis Mayfield's writing, some of his songs, they are just as timely now as they were then. So I think that in terms of his writing and then what that, that led right into that black exploitation film industry, I think it tied hand in hand, because of, uh, the words that he was saying, the things that was happening in, in, in the black community, and he was putting everybody on alert as to what was happening. And then through the vehicle of these films and those soundtracks, he was able to expound and to expand up on that, and he did it very, very well, through his writings, uh, one of them in particular was that, uh, was "Superfly." I mean he did it so very, very well. You can take each one of those songs that's on that soundtrack, and each one of them is a different kind of a story, but it was, it was, it was written then, but it applies to what's going on here right now. He had that foresight. And unfortunately, there were a lot of black, uh, black buyers that didn't even recognize his abilities at that particular time. You know, I think there was a young, uh, uh, white fellow I used to work with at a company called Mercury Records, Danny Rosencranz. Uh, white as be, you know, he was Caucasian. But still he was into Curtis Mayfield. He was into Curtis Mayfield as much as I was. And that was typical of a lot of whites throughout the country, you know. But then there were a lot of blacks that were really not into Curtis. You really had to sit down to listen to what he was saying, because it was a message of what he was saying.

What is your definition of funk, what is it?

Well, I would say, uh, uh, you listen to a, you listen to a Sly Stone, that's funk. Um, some of the things, some of the things that the Isley Brothers will do, I would say that's funk. But I would say leading, leading that pack though would be, would be Sly Stone because of the way that he would go against the rain, the grain, in mixing and putting his music together. There's something that he would feel, things that he was listening to. But I would say that's funk, Sly Stone, that's funk. Some of the things with, er, with, uh, uh, uh, the Isley Brothers, that's funk. Some of the things. Sly Stone, everything that he did was funk.

When you think in terms of the word rock 'n' roll music, what I look at rock 'n' roll music as being white folks music. I look at rock 'n' roll music as being the music that uh, that the Rolling Stones would make. That's what I call rock 'n ' roll music. I say rock 'n' roll music to me is the music that you don't necessarily dance by, that you don't groove or move a certain way, you just listen to it, it's rock 'n' roll music. You know, there are certain movements you can't do with rock 'n' roll music. White folks music, that's the way I look at rock 'n ' roll music.