So as I've just told you, the years that we're covering are 1960 to '66, loosely and our approach is more about production and producers and we're really interested in your experience, your widespread experience in the music industry from a A and R mantle, promo man to producer to a song writer to a performer, so got the whole gamut there.

Yeah, did run the whole gamut.

So back towards the beginning anyway, a song that you wrote early in ‘62, "Needles and Pins"?

"Needles and Pins" '62, '63 I guess yeah, ah, about '63 I think, I'm not sure.

Can you tell us about writing that song?

Sure. Ah, at the time um, I was living with Jack Nitzsche, ah, very closely associated with... with Jack ah, and I was ki- kind of um, a loner then. I had just ah, split with my um, my first wife and I was kind of wandering around Hollywood and Jack was a close friend of mine and so we'd, we'd hang out a lot together so I ... I was up at his house often and both of us would always just talk about music, talk about producing, talk about writing songs and Jack kept going you know, I got this great riff, if we could just write some, write something to it and he played it for me and we'd let it go and then he'd bring it up again. It was something that he just felt was a hook riff and he... he kept playing it so one night I ... ah, I said ok play it ... play the rift again. So he started playing it and then um, I just started singing to the riff and then this song evolved with both of us there that night. Then we got really excited and ah we knew Jackie DeShannon well. We knew she was always looking for material and um, we knew she wanted a hit, you know. She ... she was - an almost - as we say in the business. She never would get, could the big one and the record company had total confidence in her. So we gave her that song and I sang it for her and I ... I sang "Pins" ah and so ah, then she went in the studio and she recorded it and she sang "Pins" ah, and she had what we call a soft hit. I think it got into the 40's and then that was it. And then a little later on, ah, I guess it was in '64, I was a promotion man then so ... so a lot of things happened between that song and where I was then and I was, we all used to go to Aldo's on Hollywood Boulevard, all those promotion men and have a cup of coffee between promoting and we'd all talk and somebody said did you, you got a hit. I said, I do? I said, what's a ... he said, didn't you write "Needles and Pins"? I said, yeah. He says, well the Searchers recorded it. I said who's the Searchers? He said, they're the number one group in England. I said, you're kidding. He said, no everything they do is a smash hit. So sure enough, it was a hit and then it crossed the ocean and became a hit here.

Was it the British invasion? Sort of around that time?

Was what?

After the British invasion, around that time.

Ye, ah, yeah it was ah, it wasn't, we didn't have the full on British invasion then you know. Um, it - that was the beginning of it I think. There were little pieces of it and then there was this full invasion, but that was when it just started to spill over a little bit.

When you started out in the music business, what were your aspirations?

I always wanted to ... I always wanted to be a songwriter and a singer. Um and I always knew I was limited as a singer and it used to frustrate me. I mean, I used to try so hard, seven different kinds of voices to try to find a voice that would work and I just didn't have the power in my, my pipes but I was determined to become a singer as well. I just loved performing. I lo… I loved every bi… all of it, you know. So ah, then when I ah, when I, when I was writing it gave me entry into the business and I ... I was ... I wrote a couple of B sides for Larry Williams. I don't know if... if ... you're going back that far, but when I, when I first started I was delivering meat on Sunset Boulevard and I used to deliver meat and then go into different records companies and the, at that time on Sunset Boulevard, you had all these little independent record companies. So you had access. They had in, independent ah, distributors then. So you had access, which you don't have anymore, again in that fashion. It was like a little Tin Pan Alley. You could go down to Imperial Records and see Lou Chud. You could go to Specialty Records and see Art Rube. You could go to Crystal Records and see Frankie Lane. So he, you could go to Dot Records and see Randy Wood. So it was a fun musical time. So you ... you could write a song and ... and go he… and go in and sing it. So I used to try to write a song every week so that on Monday when I delivered the meat on Sunset Boulevard, I'd have a new song and um, what occurred was ah, I had gotten friendly with a black artist. There's a punch line here so I'll ... I'll draw it out, I'd gotten friendly with a black artist at Specialty Records and he was ... he was all excited because he was going to cut a record too and he., we would sing our songs to each other and then go downstairs and sing them to Bumps Blackwell who was a producer at Specialty Records and so he was goi… he got a recording contract. So um, I was real excited for him. So he went in and cut and then when he came back out, I wanted to ... I was anxious to see what his song was that he cut you know because Specialty was a raucous label. They had Don and Dewy, Little Richard, Larry Williams, all - there was a sign over the piano in the studio downstairs that said, Everything Is Bunk Except Funk. So that was the attitude of the company. So I ... I go there one day and there's this ... this huge upset in ... in the record company and Art ... Art Rube's disturbed and everybody's pouting and ... and I ... I'm going, what is wrong here? And Sam's not happy and so there was this was this real attitude around and then pretty soon [clears throat] and Bumps is gone and the artist is fired and there's a chance for me to get a job because they were fired on the spot like that. There was an opening and the reason they got fired was the song that they cut ah, it wasn't funky. It was a real sweet record, so he ... he threw the artist off the label, gave him the master, kept the money that was owed to him in royalties and that was the deal they cut. Said go pedal the master. So he fired Bumps Blackwell. The black artist he fired was Sam Cooke and the song he hated was "You Send Me". So then I ... I came in and got that job replacing Bumps Blackwell. So that's basically how I got into the business.

It's a colossal story. When you were aspiring as a songwriter in Los Angles, a bit single came out called "He's A Rebel". Was that the first time that you were aware of Phil Spector?

No, I was at a Record Merchandising after I left Specialty, I tried my own label and I tried to be an artist myself and ... and I didn't have the funds and I just sort of plugged along. Finally I had to get a job, so I became a promotion man at Record Merchandising and they had tons of independent records coming in, in those days because anybody that had 500 bucks could cut a master so, and they did, you know and there were tons of independent labels then. So we'd get a stack of records like this every day, you know, and have to go out and try to get airtime. Well it was impossible um. So as a promotion man, you'd go… you'd., the boss would give you your stack and then you'd get in your car and you'd go, okay, there's that one, that one, that one and then you'd keep maybe three that you thought were good you know, after you had listened to them and then you'd go off to the radio station and the, all of a sudden um, these records were coming in on Philly's Records. So I was there and they had the sound one after another after another after another. So every time a Philly's Record came in to Record Merchandising, we'd all go listen it because it was like enter, it was like entertaining and we'd always get excited when we knew a song was a hit and we knew they were all going to be a hit because the sound was just, was just there. It blew everybody away. So the easiest job in the world was getting airtime for for Phil Spector's records. So um, then I ah, I was able to talk to Phil because I, I worked for him. So I said, look, can I work just for you and ah ...

You just called him up?

Yeah.

How did that work?

Well he knew that I was a promotion man and represented his label in California so that was a big market.

Can you just start that again because I think I was talking.

Phil knew that I was a promotion man and ... and represented his records in California so naturally he's going to talk to me so I ah, as I was able to ah, develop a relationship with him, some kind of rapport with him, you know, I was working toward that goal and then finally I said, you know, how about having your own West Coast promotion man? So I made it ah, very inviting because the money wouldn't be anymore expensive. I didn't care how much money I ... I made or how many hours I worked so it was relatively inexpensive for him to do that. So he made me the West Coast promotion man for Philly's Records ah, out of Record Merchandising. So...