Okay?

Yeah.

Okay. Could you just tell the story as it unfolded?

Tiny bit more forward, because you're hitting my, you're hitting the chair next to...

Well...ah...’68 was a very, eventful and memorable year for me because...ah...I nearly got caught by the Communists in Hue and also I lost my mother during that offensive. Now...ah...in previous years four or five years before that, I always refrained from going to Hue because my family home is outside the city, about two, three miles outside the city, practically in the countryside, and there was too much risk security-wise for...

Okay, any time.

Okay, can you just take it from where you were saying about going back to Hue for Tet.

In ah several years before ah ’68 and until ’68, I always...ah...refrained from the urge of going to Hue because...ah...my family home is out of, outside of city, practically in the countryside, and there was too much risk security-wise for someone like me. Ah...I knew that the Communists didn’t (chuckles) like me...ah...because I had worked for President Diem and all that, but that year...ah...my father was ah ill. There was a risk that he might die and it is part of our customs that...ah...in such circumstances all the children should ah visit his...ah... their father. That’s what I did.

Ah. But then there was this truce which was...ah...announced to last for seven days so I said to myself even if the Communists were treacherous and start attacking right on twelve midnight on the last day of truce and if I go to Hue on the 29th and the 30th... ahh...and the 1st then leave back for Saigon the 2nd, I still have five days before the communist attack but, of course, I was (chuckling) wrong. The communists attack on the night, on the night of the last day of the year, that the thirtieth of the Lunar year, so...ah...

No, on the first, I think on the first, not the 30th, the first. That is New Year’s Day. The night of New Year’s Day. That’s why on the next day when...ah...I got ready to leave for the airport and...ah...got out of the house and to the road, I was told by people coming back from...ah...the city that the bridge leading to the city was occupied by the Communists and so I got stuck. Ah...And...ah...also the Communists on the hills...ah...across the ah field from my house and they...ah...on the other side of the river. My house was on the...ah...on the ah...on the riverside. And, then also...ah...up the road. So, my house went right in the middle of communist occupied...ah...area and...ah... there’s nothing we could do but just wait.

And...ah...the Communists came down from the hills. I think on the...ah... ah...5th because was some fighting in the...ah...around the city and the Communists were not sure whether the road was safe, but when they were certain that the road was safe, they came down and searched each house, went to check each house, and...ah...they came to our house and they asked who’s ah so-and-so. We were three. We supposed to be three brothers, and according to the information, we were...ah... all three directors; important people from Saigon.

And, the list was supplied, iron...ironically by the...ah...local... ah...chief of village. That is, he’s supposed to represent the National Government, but...ah...well I didn’t...ah...blame him for it. Probably he was acting on a threat for his own life. So, I was...ah...and another brother was there... ah...but my third brother was not there. He was in Citadel with his...ah...ah...in-laws, and...ah...but they didn’t believe us. They, they kept searching for this third director, and...ah...they did it for two or three days running. They came, keep coming back and back and back and back. In the end, they didn’t find him.

So...ah...after the, that fir...first visit, they left. The next day they came with armed troops and took us away into the hills where they...ahh...what I thought was the headquarters...ah... was, and...ah...we stayed there for a whole day, and then they asked us...ah...just...ah...very perfunctory questions and sent it back. Obviously, the people in charge were not high enough in the hierarchy, so they told us to go back and two or three days after that, they took us back into...into the hills again. And this time we had to wait ah the whole after—, for the whole day until the afternoon, late afternoon and...ah...obviously, someone from, ah, (cough) the North, very well-dressed, you know, clean. Very well-dressed came and then start interrogating.

So everyone as...ah...as...ah...you know had to write his...ah... autobiography, that’s a communist standard practice. So, we all did and he just after the man called us, each in turn, to...ahh...interrogate and then he took our ID certificate...ah...of card and...ah...he asked me question. Now on the card...I must explain, on my card, my card reads just like ah American green card or the Canadian Citizenship card, and...ah...very small...ah...like this and...ah...about this high. There’s not much room in there to write everything. Now I was, that card was...ah... delivered to me during President Diem’s time when I was... ah...press secretary of the presidency. But, because of course the card was so small (chuckle) there was no room to write “of the presidency” in there so what the, the only thing was written on there is technical expert which was my technical administrative function in the palace.

So, the...ah...the man asked me what is this technical expert and I said... ah...I’m an expert in languages. I do translations and things like that. And that...ah...(chuckle) and that end the interview, they didn’t ask any further questions. But, later, another man came and he still more probably...ah... important because he’s still better dressed than the first one and he made a political speech.

And the first sentence he said and I remember it all my life and this is why I left a full seven days before the Communists move into Saigon...ah...in 1975, and that’s why I told General Minh in April that I going to leave because I escaped the Communists three times and...I...I’m not going to try a fourth time. And, he said, you are all guilty towards the revolution because you have lived in the Hue and that is illegitimate that’s the occupied area. So, no matter what you do you are a criminal in regard to the revolution and people who forgot that...ahhhh...and in 1975 had hope of... ah...cooperating with the Communists and all that, made a big mistake in their lives because they will always have a reason to accuse you and put you on the defensive or out. But that...umm...for laters.

Now...ah...after that, they sent us back again, but this time they said...ah... well we call you back and...ah...to give you assignments so...ah in my mind I think this means big trouble because if they assign you something, you cannot refuse. In fact, during the...ah...in the...ah last trip to the headquarters, the headquarters...ah...the local headquarters a student who...ah...was armed and was supposed to be on their side and...ah...escorted us...ah... to the road and he...ah...slowed down. I was the last in the file. he slowed down and spoke very softly to me and said don’t argue with them because they are going to shoot you right away if you do. Which means that all the people with guns and with the Communists were not on their side. So, I...ah...didn’t say anything; unless this I was asked questions. I...ah...didn’t answer. Then that was, that must have been...ahhhh...the 8th or the 9th.

...still more, probably important.

The ones who came to search your house, who were they?

Oh, they’re locals, but they are [inaudible].

OK, pick it up...Tell about the cadres.

Well, the thing that I, that impressed me most and I, which I would remember all my life was that in the late afternoon when this northern cadre, well dressed in fatigue, perfectly clean and well-pressed, and clean. No mud, nothing on it, and came to lecture us on the revolution...ah...on, on the situation.

The first sentence that he said, you are all criminals in...ah...regard to the revolution because you live in the Hue-controlled area, and that I can never forget and that was to guide my action afterward because I knew that no matter what you do, whether you have commit a crime; you been in the army, police, civil service or not. The fact that you have no lived in the forest makes you a criminal and the Communist was always finding way of putting you in jail or accusing you...ah...as they wish.

Now...ah...but that was at that day. Then, they sent us back, for the next three days... ahh...Those people left, but, in the meantime, they are in our home. Troops are coming in and out all the time and these troops were, as you now know...ah...dressed in the northern uniform with the famous hat, the famous so-called Ho Chi Minh sandals...ahhhh...well-dressed and they talked to us freely and they told us they were sent to...ah... occupy the city. There was to be a big review, a victory parade and they had a special uniform for that. Each of them has a special uniform that made for parade. But, all these people are from the north, and they told us that ah we didn’t have to ask because we...ahhhh... recognize this hat, we recognize the northern accent and... ah...when we asked them, they told us.

So...ah...there’s no secret about that. So, the three days...ah...there was fighting and nothing really happened. They must have sent us back on the uh 8th, I think, 8th of a lunar year. And, then, we just start to live through three or four very tense days. For some strange reason, they didn’t take away our radio. Ahh...Ahh...Radio set. So, we just secretly listened and...ah...occasionally these boys would come in and...ah...are you listening to radio? We were listening (chuckle) to the BBC at the time. So, we had to switch to something else immediately. But, through the BBC then we learned that the reinforcement would come from the south, that the American Marines have landed in Hue that is downtown in the...ahhhh...near the bridge. Everyone knows about that...ah...area, and just, we just wait and prayed...and...ah...that the companies wouldn’t take us away in that time. And, for some reason, they, they didn’t. either they were too busy or for...ahhhh...some other reason, I...I...I don’t know...Ah...it, but the fact is that...ah...on the 12th, I think, of the lunar year the...ah...Marines rushed from, arrive at the railway station which is about a mile, a mile-and-a-half from our home, and the next morning, this is one of the surprising thing about American fighting tactics, they simply run one stretch from that bridge to our home. That is about half, one-and-a-half miles, and... ah...I found out afterwards that...ah...they did so because there was a...there was fire by a mortar, and when they came into my home in the back yard and...ah...we were in the house, and...ah...they came in the back and...ah...we were afraid they would...sh...they would, they would shoot.

So, I came out and all the time I said don’t shoot, don’t shoot, don’t shoot all the time. And, then I found these Marines very tense, you know, the things on the gadget. And so, they said, they said “VC where’s the VC?” And then... ah...I was very cool at that time. I said let me talk to your skipper. Call your skipper and then...ah...the little man came. He said where’s the VC, and I said the VC is gone but my family’s th...are there. I said, I beck...everyone to come out. So, everyone came out and they said VC, they...they fire from here. But, I show them the...ah...the hatch. You know they always...the Viet Cong practice us to cut retreat path...Ah...and I say, you see the, the hatch Viet Cong cut this and, for their retreat.

But, the...the lieutenant insist and they say that we were far from here. Oh, I said, I understand now. The Viet Cong had a long tube and...ah...they occupy the house across the street, so go and check there. So he went and checked and...ah...of course the Viet Cong had start a mortar position there. So, when he came back, it’s all right, it’s just, they relaxed. Ahh...And then...ah...I told the...ahhhh...the lieutenant that I had to get out. My brother too. And he said, umm, well, we have a jeep. We can uh take you out...ah...but just...ah...don’t worry. Ahhhh...you could sl...sleep there. I say I’m not going to sleep here because you’re going to pull out and the Viet Cong’s coming back tonight. There’s no doubt about that so I insist so much, they we... there’s room for one. I said there’s also my brother and my sister-in-law, they have to...So, in the end they took us, all three...ahh...down to the...ah...to the...ah...to the station, the radio station.

Cut for a second?

You want to cut for a second?

What was Diem's— are you rolling?

No, not 1961. I was there in ’63 because I left in ’69. I...I, I was in close touch with Mr. Nhu but...and the government, I was not there in ’61.

What mistakes did Diem make? You were there in the 1963 Buddhist crisis. What mistakes did Diem make during the 1963 Buddhist crisis?

Well, I think the mistake made by Diem all through these years as by all the other Vietnamese politicians is never to have understood what, as my nephew say, what makes America tick. They did not understand America at all. The constitution structure, the importance of the press, opinion and all that. They never under...not...not one single Vietnamese, to my knowledge has understood that part, and from there, they made all kinds of mistakes. You see, ignoring, ignoring the importance of opinion in the American political process.

Could you, could you think of some example or an anecdote that illustrates this point?

Well, I can think of...let’s see...ah...the typical case of Dr. Dan. When Dr. Dan was ejected from the national assembly in ’59, I was still there. (Coughs) I was still press secretary to President Diem. I was disturbed. I was very disturbed. I, so, I went in...ah...I first saw Mr. Diem...

I’m sorry you’re going to go into a story that will be way too complicated for us to tell.

Can we cut just a minute?

Just cut a second.

Get into that element. For example, would you refer to her statements, such as, describe you know, referring to the burning monks as barbecues, what did you do to try to ah...

Well, since you mention this when she...ahh...

Would you mention her name because...

Mme. Nhu, Nhu that is, President Diem’s ahh...brother, sister-in-law. Now ah this (chuckle) barbecue, that you mention, interests me because...

No, you got to do it over again. I’m not in the show.

Huh...I was...interested in this so-called barbecue story. Mme. Nhu say that her kids pick it up in...the... ahh... what you call it, café. People were talking about barbecue. The kinds brought that word home and...ah...she liked that. But, when she used...ah...this word in a telegram sent to ah...I think, the New York Times...ah... and she want me to send that telegram through my office... ah...because I had facilities for that, I refused. I said this is not the right thing to do and...ah...she got it sent by the Ministry of Information afterwards.

But, that’s one...one part of it. Mme. Nhu is a spoiled child, as you like, and...ah...because she was the wife of Mr. Nhu, Mr. Diem could do little about it because out of consideration of his brother, he wouldn’t want to meddle on, comment on, on his brother’s-in-law’s wife. That I can understand that position. With President Diem it was a very difficult position there.

Now...ah...Monsignor Thuc who...ah...was listened to by practically everyone in the family, now... ah...unfortunately tend to support Mme. Nhu in...ah... and...ah...all, all that she did. And Mr. Nhu being Mme. Nhu’s husband, although he got mad at her privately and... ah...he, he did that at least once in my presence...ahh... said to me ah...

Now, as insider I know that everyone was mad at Mme. Nhu except for ah Monsignor Thuc, but as Monsieur Nhu said everyone is kicking at my wife, you expect me to kick her also. That’s it, that’s ah sums up the position of the family in regard to Mme. Nhu.

That's fine. I think we can go [inaudible].

Okay, let's just do a wide-shot. Everybody quiet. Room tone. Just look over here, sir.