MAY I ASK YOU FIRST TO REMEMBER THE PERIOD WHEN YOU WERE IN THE GOVERNMENT, THE EARLY PERIOD WHEN MR. NEHRU WAS PRIME MINISTER. WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER OF HIS VIEWS ON THE NUCLEAR ISSUE?

Well, Mr. Nehru was against nuclear weapons. As a matter of fact India from the very time it became independent... took a definite stand against nuclear weapons, that we are against it, and we won't manufacture it. That has been the stand from the very beginning. It, irrespective of how others think about it, because, we are convinced that nuclear weapons will only destroy the world, it will not benefit the world in any way. It's only a weapon of destruction. It doesn't give victory on to the person who uses it, because they all too will be destroyed. The world will be, I don't know ...how much a portion of the world will be destroyed, but a major part of it will be destroyed in the use. What's the good of it? What do you gain of it? And that is why we have been against it, from the very beginning, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru was against it too. This is not a new policy. The policy has been the same from the very beginning of all... the time we became free. And that is the policy which we have followed.

DO YOU REMEMBER ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH HIM?

We agreed so many of the questions in discussion, I don't remember now conversations.

DO YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT HIS VIEWS?

No... we had the same view, so between us there was no question of any discussion. We agreed completely in that view. Therefore where is the question of a discussion between us. A discussion comes in only with others, who differed. And that is why there is no discussion.

THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY, WHICH INDIA DIDN'T SIGN, WHY DID YOU FEEL SO STRONGLY AGAINST THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY AT THAT TIME?

We refused to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty ... because... those who asked us to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty were themselves keeping atomic weapons. And they asked us not to do it. How can we sign it? I told them in these very words, that if two robbers come to me and said, "Don't do robbery," what effect will it have on me? Unless you give up these weapons, I can't sign with you. I can't be with... sit in your company. But... whether we sign or not sign, whether than do it or not do it... and the whole world does atomic weapons, we won't do it. That's the determination that we are men, because we believe in it. And if we don't practice it... what right have we to kill other people? And what effect will it have? It is therefore that we have taken a very consistent attitude, from the very beginning.

THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY SPONSORED THE TREATY WANTED TO STOP THE SPREAD OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS. DID YOU NOT FEEL THAT IT WOULD DO THAT?

How? It will their... monopoly, those people, their monopoly of nuclear weapons, it will be worse. If they give up nuclear weapons, and sign the treaty, I can understand it, I can sign with them. But how can I sit in company with criminals?

DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE CHINESE EXPLODED THEIR BOMB? DO YOU REMEMBER HOW YOU FELT AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU HEARD THAT NEWS?

About the Chinese? Well, I heard about it, but I don't know the details about it.

DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOUR REACTION WAS?

Well, I was against it, because when you don't believe in these weapons, or the meaning of making experiments with it... it's one thing to make experiments for nuclear energy; it's another thing for making experiments for a bomb. The two are quite different.

WAS MRS. GANDHI OF THE SAME OPINION AS YOU WERE?

Well, she also believed in, in the same philosophy. At least she said so.

WAS SHE IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU WHEN IT CAME TO THE TREATY?

Yes, she had to agree with it, with what I, I wouldn't agree. So I don't know whether she was in agreement or not. When Russians asked me to sign it, she did ask me. I said, "I can't sign it." And so I went to, when I went to Russia, I...gave the government's opinion there on the other government. She asked me to do that. I don't know left to herself whether she would have stuck to it... because it's not easy, to differ from all other people. But when you want to follow truth... you have to be alone.

WHEN WAS THAT VISIT TO RUSSIA THAT YOU TOOK?

I first visited Russia in 1960. I was then finance minister. As a matter of fact, I first went outside, outside India, only in '58, as finance minister, when I went to the World Bank, and I went to England, for the Commonwealth Conference and all that. But that was in '58. Before that I'd never gone out of India.

AFTER THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY, IN 1974, WHEN THE INDIAN TEST TOOK PLACE, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

Well, that was a wrong thing; they should not have done it. That is what Mrs. Gandhi had done. But it was not done for... a bomb. She did it to, just to show off. It was a wrong thing; she should not have done it. That's why it was misunderstood.

WHY DID SHE MAKE THAT DECISION?

Perhaps she wanted to show that we also are capable of it. Showing strength. Well, not showing strength. When you are not really strong and you want to show you are strong, you are bound to make mistakes. A strong person does not need demonstrations. He shows by his action that he is strong. But one who wants to demonstrate strength is not really strong. That's what I believe.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THE INDIAN TEST?

What she did... as I said, I was against it, and I said so. At that time... I was not in government then.

CAN YOU JUST REPEAT THAT?

It should not have been done. Because it... created a lot of misunderstanding for us. We showed a double standard... which was not, which was not good. How can you stop other people from making a statement then? It shouldn't have been done. Well, it was not really a nuclear weapon which was exploded; it was only an explosion made to show strength, that we know it. That's all. Well, it had no fallout or anything... otherwise nuclear... explosions have a fallout... which affects surrounding areas and other things. This had none.

DO YOU THINK THAT PAKISTAN MISUNDERSTOOD IT?

The whole world will misunderstand it. Why only Pakistan? Anybody will misunderstand it.

WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF MR. CARTER'S VISIT TO YOU IN 1977?

The purpose was only good relations, I think. Just how we... I will resume them. I said you, I invited him first here, then I'll come there. You come first. But it was... it, just a friendly visit, I don't think there was any particular purpose in it. Unless he had something else in his mind, I don't know.

HE WANTED YOU TO SIGN A SAFEGUARDS AGREEMENT.

He did... try to do that, but I told him in plain words, what I... said earlier. How can I sign a treaty like that? And he felt it rather... when I gave the comparison of robbers... he felt it a bit. And so when... after our meeting was over, when he met his own advisers, he told them that this man seems to be very tough; I will have to be tough with him, after going back to Washington. He said that, and one of his men told me this, repeated that to me. So when Mr. Carter met me again, for another conference, and we had some difference of opinion, then I said, "Mr. Carter, why don't you become tough here? Why have to be tough after going to Washington? Be tough here, and see what it means." And then he said he was sorry. He realized that it was wrong. But it is always better to be truthful and frank, not keep anything in your mind. Then the relations are good. My relations with him were very good.

DID THE INDIAN NUCLEAR INDUSTRY DEPEND ON THE UNITED STATES FOR SUPPLIES AT THIS TIME?

Well... they don't supply anything. They didn't supply, they refused to supply. I said, "You are very wrong, because when you have made this agreement, which has to supply us with these things, then there is nothing like this. How can you now change that? You are totally wrong, but you can do it if you like. You don't believe in keeping your word, I don't mind."

DID YOU BELIEVE AT THAT POINT IN A PEACEFUL NUCLEAR EXPLOSION?

There is a peaceful nuclear, use of nuclear energy, for electricity, for other purposes, it can be used. And I don't see anything wrong in doing that. Everything can be used for bad purposes and for good purposes. A weapon can be used for self-defense. And it can be used for attack. We keep the array, and the rest keep the army, but we don't keep the army to attack anybody. We have never attacked anybody; we use it only for self-defense.

DO YOU THINK WE'RE DOING ENOUGH TODAY TO STOP THE SPREAD OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

Well, I don't see, we are, we are saying that, but I don't see much... honest effort about it yet...

(QUESTION REPEATED)

Well, are they doing, America is again making explosions; Russia has done something. Unless they are determined to do it, it can't be done. And those who want to want to have leadership of the world... they will never stop doing it. I don't know why they want to be leader of anybody. That's what I told them. Why do you want to be my leader, or why do you want to be leader of anybody? We are now living in a world which is quite different from the world before. And we are now considering... independence of all people is equally important, and equally sacrosanct. Therefore the freedom of United States... is not more than the freedom of a small state of 2,000 people. You must treat them equally; otherwise, your freedom is no good. This is what we ought to do. This is what I told them. And they had to agree.

DO YOU THINK THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS CARRY SOME KIND OF MAGICAL POWER, STATUS?

Yes, that is... they want to... frighten other people by that. Otherwise why do you want to even have nuclear weapons? It's only meant for destruction.

CAN YOU TELL ME AGAIN WHY CARTER CAME OVER?

I think he came only for good relations, but incidentally, he thought he might persuade me also, to sign the treaty. As a matter of fact, he wanted us to keep to non-proliferation, that is, not to use nuclear weapons, that is... but, that was all right; he did not that, because we were safer he tell me not to do it... But it was not un-, proper on his part to tell me that, because he was keeping... nuclear weapons. How can he ask me not to do it? And this is what I tell him.

MRS. GANDHI'S VIEW ON THE NON-PROLIFERATION TREATY... DID YOU AND SHE AGREE ON THAT?

Well, we all agreed on that.

YOU FELT A LITTLE MORE STRONGLY...

Well, I don't know whether she believed as a matter of principle, as I believe in it. I can't say. She may or may not believe, have believed it. Now she's no more, so one can't say anything about it.

CAN YOU JUST EXPLAIN WHAT YOUR POLICY WAS, WHEN YOU WERE PRIME MINISTER, IN TERMS OF NUCLEAR ISSUES?

Well, my... policy at that time... was the same policy as India, but I may, I tried to work for it more. And I spoke in the United Nations also about it, and that they must determine not to have these nuclear weapons, and to reduce expenditures on arms and the military. Every... every country should be determined to do that, and there should be no treaties between separate countries, or two groups, or three groups, because that is a certain way of having a conflict. One should have equal relations with all people in the world. Then it's all right. This is what I tried to explain to them. Theoretically they agreed, but in practice, they didn't behave. But if I had continued longer, perhaps, I think I might have succeeded. I don't know.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE NOT TO GO AHEAD WITH THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS FREE ZONE?

Nuclear free zone?