I'd like to start out just asking you to tell me a little bit about your background before you came to Motown. I know it can take a long time to go through the whole thing. But maybe you could give me a brief idea of your career up through the '60s, what kinds of things you worked on.

Well, I started off my career in Buffalo, New York where I was raised as a, as a singer that developed into a, uh, tap dancer. Uh, I worked with another young by the name of Bill Porter for some years. And uh, I eventually wound up in Hollywood for about three years. Did a lot of extra work in film and working nightclubs up and down the, the West Coast. And eventually went back to Buffalo and worked a lot of the nightclubs in the Midwest. That was during the '30s. And uh, in '39 I went back to New York and uh, I had a little problem with my, my former partner, and uh, he went into business with his wife so I had to look for another partner. And I wound up in a Broadway show called "A Hot McCarter" which eventually moved to the World's Fair, starring Bill Robinson, Bojangles they called him. And uh, I was working with six other boys, five other boys, it was called the Six Cotton Club Boys. They had been, uh, chorus boys in the Cotton Club. And uh, I worked with them for a couple of years and then I, uh, started doing some production stuff, and I met my second wife. We did, uh, some stuff in Atlantic City with Honi Coles who eventually wound up being my last major partner. Uh, and uh, I did an act with my wife, Dotty Sauntis who was quite a little singer and dancer out of Philadelphia. And we toured with Cab Calloway until around '43 I was inducted into the service. Did my hitch in the Army and I come out, Honi Coles and I were very good friends and uh, we decided to do an act together to raise some money to open up a dancing school, which never happened. Because the act was so successful that we, uh, continued to do the act. And that continued until uh, we went into uh -- well, we did a lot of good things. We had a, had a European tour and right after the war, '48, '49, we come back and we auditioned for a Broadway show, "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes", and we made it. And we worked in the "Blondes" until '52. Then tap dancing started to sort of like fade out, you know. And there wasn't as many good jobs as we were looking for. And uh, it was, we, we were just working spasmodically. Uh, we did some things with, uh, Tony Martin in Las Vegas. Then we went on tour with a Pearl Bailey unit. And around about '60, 1960, we decided that, uh, that we would try to do some other things. Honey had an offer to go into the Apollo as production manager, and I was doing a lot of vocal choreography at that time. I started about '53 in order to make ends meet, you know, in between engagements, I would do some vocal choreography.

Let me ask you about the vocal choreography, what were some of the groups you worked with in those days before Motown.

Yeah, well, speaking with, uh, about the vocal choreography, one of the first groups that I worked with was a group called the Cadillacs, which was uh, an exceptionally talented group. They all moved well and they sort of established Cholly Atkins's style. In other words they basically put me on the map, and everybody would look at them and see their choreography and they wanted to know who did it, so they would tell them. And then, uh, then uh, most of the record companies and the group managers started seeking my services and I started to, to do quite a bit of choreography for Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers, and the Clef-Tones and the Heartbeats, and uh, Solitaires, the Moonglows. Eventually I did some stuff for Smokey Robinson and the Miracles.

Tell me more about that, about when you first saw Smokey and what you helped them with.

Well, I had some friends that was in an agency, Shaw Agency, that was booking Smokey Robinson and the Miracles. That's when it was five of them, because Smokey's wife was in the group, Claudette. Uh, they had just, uh, had a big hit on uh, "Shop Around." So uh, these friends at the agency suggested that they get together with me because they wanted to do a nightclub act with some Broadway tunes and stuff of that sort in addition to their record things. So uh, I had a meeting with them, and uh, we went into a, a rehearsal period, and we did "Shop Around" and we did some other Broadway things for them while they were in the city, in New York working.

What were the kinds of things you were trying to do with a song like "Shop Around" with a young group like the Miracles? How would you help them get an identity and a style?

Well, the most important thing in choreographing for a specific tune is to get the story line and try to make your movements, rather than just actual movements, let them become more or less a physical drama to, to what they were singing about. And uh, also, uh, honor the beat and the rhythmic pattern of the musical track. So it would be a happy marriage between the movement and the vocal and uh, this is the thing that you give a lot of consideration to.

Were they pretty rough when you started working with them, in terms of knowing how to move and how to be on the stage, Smokey and the Miracles.

No, Smokey was the worst, because most lead singers are. Uh, there's exceptions to the rule, but uh, the rest of the group moved very well. Smokey did all right too, you know, but of the five he was the worst.

What kind of thing were you trying to help him do?

When you started working with Motown, did Berry Gordy ask you to help polish the acts with crossover in mind? Was that a real goal of the company to make the acts palatable across a wide range of audiences?

Well, yeah, uh, uh, Berry Gordy brought me out to, sort of put the, uh, put the new look on the R and B groups to polish them up for better venues, you know, like the Copacabana and the hotels in Vegas and Reno and Tahoe and theaters in the round.

What did that mean in terms of choreography to polish them up? What kinds of things would you change?

Well, we just, the recorded material we would try to make it a little, uh, a little more palatable for the type of audiences they wanted to appeal to. In other words we made it a little bit more sophisticated and as crude as like regular street dancing. And uh, primarily to, to, to inject some, uh, production stuff into their repertoire, uh, Broadway tunes and things that would uh, make them more of an act, and uh, performers, rather than just singers of songs.

But the song was always to you the most important thing. Tell me a little bit about how you'd build a choreography that didn't get in the way of the singing. You mentioned before to give people time to catch their breath and that sort of thing.

Well, you, you, uh, uh, uh, in vocal choreography you had to give a lot of consideration to the fact that you were working with singers and not dancers. But you had to make singers look like they were dancers, and to make the movements as natural as possible, and there to be an association with the movement, uh, somewhat to what the lyric was saying. Uh, and you had to give, uh, a lot of consideration to the fact that, uh, the artist had to come back into the mike area and start singing, especially the background singers, you know. And you had to make sure they had a couple of bars of music in order to catch their breath. And uh, in many cases a lot of choreographers didn't give that, uh, the proper thought.

When you worked with a group, say the Temptations, give me an idea of what the rehearsal schedule was like. Did it take a long time to work up these routines for these guys who weren't real dancers to begin with?

Well, it depends on, it depends on how many people are in the group. Uh, in some cases, uh, it, it would take almost a week, uh, six day week, of uh, maybe five or six hours a day, uh, to do one number, depending on whether it was a ballad, uh, up-tempo. The up-tempo things usually was more energetic so it would take a little bit more time. But it was, uh, uh, within a week you could stage a, a complete number, a record tune and also polish. You only get 65 percent in the studio anyway. The other 35 percent you would get during the performance.

So you would develop a routine for each new single as it came out.

Yes. Each, each single that was released on most of the groups at Motown uh, would have to be prepared for television shots, and they would have to be choreographed. There was, uh, priority given to quite a few of the top drawer artists, you know.

What about working with the Temps. Since we talked to Otis Williams I want to ask you about him in particular. Was he a quick study or was it hard for him to get it down?

Well, uh, uh, some of the Temps was very good with the new choreography. Some of them was inhibited, you know, uh, and you had to work with them, particularly like Eddie Kendricks and Otis Williams in particular. He moved well, had the ability, but uh, inhibitions kept from thinking that he was able to do it. So we had to work on that and erase that inhibition. And eventually he developed to the point where he felt like he could do it as well as anybody else, which is where he is today.

He said that you were a real taskmaster, and sometimes he'd have to leave the room and go out in back and kick a garbage can and cuss. Do you remember that?

Well, yes, Otis at times, you know, he would still have a little feeling that, uh, he wasn't able to do these things. And, and uh, he would call me a taskmaster and said I was driving him like crazy which was necessary because we had deadlines. But uh, he eventually would get it as well as anybody else.

Do you remember that time you saw them at the Howard Theater doing "The Way You Do The Things You Do", and gave him some advice afterwards? Can you tell me about that?

Yes, I was on a project with, uh, Jerry Butler in Washington, DC, and the Temps was on the bill with him. And they had just released "The Way You Do The Things You Do". And it had some things on it. So they asked me if I could give them some advice on it. So in between shows I would go down in the dressing room and work with them on it. And uh, in addition to things that Paul Williams had done on it. We retained most of the things, we just straightened out some of the formations and interchanged some of the movements from one spot to another to make them more professional looking.

How was Martha Reeves to work with? Was she a natural dancer?

Martha Reeves was a, a, a very interesting group. I mean, they, the group itself, uh, was excellent. As a matter of fact they moved, uh, in my estimation as well as the Supremes, you know. Uh, and Martha being the lead singer, you know, didn't have to do these things. But whenever I was rehearsing the background singers, she would get right in there and learn them although she didn't have to do them. She just wanted to know what they were. So when I wasn't around she'd be able to correct the girls when they start, uh, getting a little ragged, you know.

Was there a difference when you worked with Martha and the Vandellas and the Supremes, was there a different identity that you tried to help each of those two groups have?

Well, the difference in working with the Supremes and the other girl groups like Martha and the Vandellas, and the Marvelettes, you let the material dictate to you, uh, really, how you worked with the group, and with the talent, and the personalities. All of these things was instrumental in having all of the groups, uh, retain their own identity. Uh, and, and the material had a lot to do with it, you know.

What was the identity of the Supremes? What was the idea behind their presentation?

The, the Supremes was the first girl group that we started to groom with, uh, uh, a real sophisticated approach. Very feminine looking. You know, most of the girls, uh, wanted to imitate the fellas, see? So it was necessary to pull them back from that and try to make them as feminine looking as possible. And the Supremes had this particular air and their material was soft and mostly love songs, and uh, it was easy to, uh, inject that, uh, that sophisticated approach.

Were the three of them different in terms of how they took to your teaching and how well they learned the dancing.

There were all, there were three distinct personalities, uh, very different, uh, and uh, you didn't want to, to kill the individualism but you did want unity and precision, uh, but you still wanted them to do the moves without changing them, uh, with their own little personal feelings, so that uh …