So, I’m going to ask you about "Be My Baby", just it was a debut single from a brand new group and I just what you thought of it when you heard of it?

We loved it. I loved it, ah, I was the background singer on, on "Be My Baby". I, ah, I love the song, ah, 'cause it, it had a sound, it had a hook, it, it, it was dumb enough, ah, it was all those things. Then I had so much fun singing that phrase - be my, be my baby. And my voice kicked out on that one, you know, so I got kind of excited. I have a, Phil, Phillip used to call me his funk on, on, ah, his background voices, you know, 'cause I had this kind of nasally, piercey kind of voice that cuts through everything. And, ah, to it would add a little edge 'cause the girls had a, a prettier, sweeter sound. So you'd have this kind of edge that Phil liked, he thought it was funky, ah, and so he'd always have me sing background. And it, it blended pretty good. And so the real dominant factor, I don't think, Cher didn't sing on that record, it was me and the dominant factors were me and Ronnie and Ronnie's got a kind of high, little bit of a piercey voice too. Ahm, that's what Phillip loved about Ronnie was the, the sound that she had. He thought she was the, the perfect artist for the time to interpret music in that, at that, in that period. So, ah, loved the song. I, I loved 'cause, like I said, I have so much fun singing on it, it was just a cooking song.

Brian Wilson talks about it in his biography, said he heard it on the radio and he just stopped the car dead and pulled over, was just blown away by it.

Brian Wilson and Phil Spector always used to kind of have a riv… a rivalry going on, you know. So we would, we would go over and listen to what Brian was cutting. And Brian was, ah, a more unique artist in some ways and a little more complicated in some ways than Phil was, you know. He had some interesting musical things happening and, and he was creating some sounds that would, would, ah, you'd, you'd use synthesizers to use today but he was thinking in those terms, you know, ah. But then he, he had, pretty soon he was using drugs to advance his thinking and it caught him, you know, and it just blind sided him and then he was finished. Brian lived near me and Brian always would beat me up a little bit mentally 'cause I was a flunky and not, not the, not the head guy. And then when, when, when Brian lost it, ah, I used to go over there and a friend of mine loved the Beach Boys so I took him over to Brian's house. And, so we sat and listened to records, Phil Spector records, he would just still idolize music and but he was a different guy then, you know, and had, had lost it. And then, ah, my friend sat next to him, he had pigtail then, he'd go, aye, my pigtail bother you man? No, no, sure, sure, yeah. And, and so then he took us in the studio and sing. But he could only, he said, I've got a little problem, to me he'd say, I've got a little problem, I can only sing dirty lyrics. And so he'd play the piano and just say filthy things but, ah, that's all he could do. He said, I, I, as soon as I get over this, he was going to write again. But he could, that, he could only do that then at that time, I don't know when that was but that's a true story.

What did you think of Ronnie compared to Darlene? They had really different sounds.

Da… Darlene was a true gospel singer, a, a blues singer and was capable of handling any kind of a song. Ah, Ronnie was a little more of a, of a unique singer and needed that type of material for her voice. She, she almost sounded like she was 12 years-old all the time, you know, so. It, it worked fine in that era but the comparison of the two artists, I, I think Darlene Love had way more depth. Later on when I tried to do a single, went out on the road, I took Darlene and, and her cousin Edna. Edna was one of the Ronettes too. And they, they, there wasn't any kind of song they couldn't handle, you know, and then if you, if you'd leave them alone on stage they'd steal the show from you because they could just kick butt, you know. And Darlene still can't and I see Darlene, we cross paths all the time and one time we went and did this Christmas, they called, ah, ah, the, ah, Bottom Line called me and said, would you come and do, recreate the Phil Spector Album. I was mayor of, of this city then. And I said, sure. It just sounded like fun, it was at Christmastime. So I went to New York and we, we redid the Christmas album which was, which, which is a, is a classic Genius album. And so I was Phil, I played Phil and Darlene was there and Ronnie was there. And, ah, it, it was, it was a great time and, but it was kind of sad in a way, you know, because that piece of history was gone. And, I was glad that I wasn't still trying to do yeah, what they were trying to do, you know. And I was glad that it was two weeks and I was going to come back here and do what I do now or, or do what I do today. But, but it was fun. I mean we had, you couldn't get standing room in there, you know. And Darlene, Darlene sang. And I, I'm a fan of hers so I love listening to Darlene.

Gerry Goffin told us that God was a young, black girl back in the Sixties when the girl groups really sang.

In the Sixties, yeah, God was a, a young black girl. That was the, that was the dominating sound and, and Philip could find them, Phillip could find them. Although he came up with Bobbie Sox And The Blue Jeans. And that was Bobbie. And he did "Zippity Do Da" which a lot of people miss when they, when they talk about the Spector sound. "Zippity Do Da" was a big hit. But it was a great record. You know it was a departure for Phil. It was, it was Bobbie and, and, ah, it wasn't a young black female. It was, it was Bobbie just singing "Zippity Do Da". And then the approach that Phil had on it was one of the greatest, I mean I would never think to go that direction with the song, the, the way he took that song and reinterpreted it. It was killer. Ah, it's one of my favorite Phil Spector productions, you know, probably "Be My Baby" and then "Zippity Do Da".

Some people say "Zippity Do Da" is the first real wall of sound production. Would you say that's true?

No, no. He was doing it before then. It, it would get bigger and move around but he had it then, you know. It was just the way, the way it was arranged and the way it was approached and the way he had the horns going on it. And the way it was put together was, was really, I loved it.

It was different from the Walt Disney version?

Yeah, somewhat.

The Beatles were on Ed Sullivan in February of '64, how did that initial Beatles onslaught change recording or change the music for you and Phil?

It was scary when the Beatles came on the scene. It was like an earthquake or a fire or an accident. You, you, got, you went into a little shock. So, so it was nice to listen to their music but it was also, you, you realized that something bigger was threatening you, you know. And how would this effect you and in what way, because, ah, you know it wasn't just a couple of hits a hot, a hot artist, you know it was a new Elvis. You know so that scares you in, in the, when you're in the industry because it's, it's bigger than you can compete with, you know. And it's, it's as big as an earthquake and they turned out to be as big as an earthquake so it, it had that effect. And, and Phillip used to sit and, and at the break he'd play their song and, and analyze it. He goes, - you know, they write like, I forget, Gershwin or somebody like that. But he was, he would, able to be very analytically with how, how they wrote. And he was fascinated by the songs they were throwing out. And we were all, all fascinated because it was pow, just, we knew it was the new thing and it was something that was there, something that you, you couldn't really jump on. In the old days you, you could, you could copy somebody or, or, or do an extension of what they did and rip them off a little but there was, there was no way that you could really, ahm rip off the Beatles. And, and anybody with any music savvy knew that, that, that things were going to change. Then in the other sense, I liked it because we all had long hair, ah, we all dressed weird then. Phillip dressed, when I first met Phillip he had long hair and

You were telling me what Phil looked like.

Oh, Phillip, ah, Phillip had long hair. When I first met Phillip I was, I was mesmerized by his look. He was, he was shorter than me, which was nice, ah, and then he had long hair and he was very, ahm, he dressed with a purpose and it was a rebellious statement, you know, but it was… it was cool and we were blown away by it. So everybody tried to duplicate Phil, you know, and kind of be the little rebel. So we all started letting our hair grow. But then it wasn't because the Beatles or because of the Stones. I think he, he took his thing off of Beethoven and he used to wear a, a sweatshirt with a picture of Beethoven on the front of it and he had the long hair. And then we all started wearing our hair long. So when the Beatles came on the scene, ah, it, the good part, the good news was that we wanted to be involved in the music scene. It was, it was Sonny and Cher then or we weren't Sonny and Cher but we were trying to get on to the music scene. So people would check me out all the time 'cause I had my hair long and they, they would just think you were a famous singer from England then, you know. So it, it gave you a leg up. And then, and then we had the, the, the Beatles came in with the long hair and then we had, we, we one-upped them when we came with our clothes. It just blew them away. They never saw the clothes revolution. They came in with their hair revolution. But really the, the, the clothing revolution, I would say is directly Sonny and Cher's. I don't know anyone else that was doing that. We couldn't get a lot of jobs. We couldn't sing on ABC because Dick and Dedee wore the uniform you were supposed to wear when you sang. We had the Bob Cat vests and the pants and the hair and the Eskimo boots and it, it blew everybody away. In fact it gave us overnight success in England. We flew there to go do "I Got You Babe" do it on a, on a show. And, ah, we couldn't get into the hotel. They just suddenly lost our reservation. When they saw what walked into the hotel, ah, they couldn't believe it. So, ah, then they lost our reservation. So they wouldn't take us into the hotel. And so we called our PR man, he had the press there and it was front page the next day. And boom, that was it, that was the end of the whole thing. So not getting entrance to the hotel really rocketed us in England. We were a success the next day.

Once again.

Okay, well, ah, when I met Phil I was surprised 'cause I never saw that kind of a look. It was, it was the long hair. And, and for me, I guess, he was the original person who wore his hair long then, ah. And he, he dressed differently and he, he really was incredibly unique, always wore glasses and was really sure that you would notice him. And, but he, he took his, his long hair from Beethoven, not form the Beatles or any English group. They weren't around then. So it was uniquely Phillip's. Then we all kind of copied Phillip in different versions. And then Sonny and Cher ultimately, I found out that that's a commercial thing to do, you know, ah, have a look. So we took it further when we went out on our own and did the bell bottoms and the, ah, ah, Bob Cat vests and, and Eskimo boots. And, and our look, ah, blew everybody away. It just, ah, ah, created so much attention that it was remarkable. Probably, the way we looked in the Sixties would, was as disturbing as if you were naked. I mean when we walked in a restaurant it would act… actually upset people, ah, to a point they'd want to punch you in the nose. I mean they just didn't know how to respond to it. It was totally strange. But it was fun. We enjoyed it.

Do you think you brought rock and roll out of suits and ties?

Yeah, I think Sonny and Cher were really responsible for the, the clothing revolution. I think that was uniquely ours. Ah, we took it a whole step further and the world responded to it, they loved it. The kids loved it. The, the parents fought it for a while but the kids said, this is it. And that was it. There was no, no negotiation on that one.

Alright, I’m going to backtrack for a sec. Did Phil ever tell you about the plane flight back with the Beatles?

No I, I left Phil about, ah, about when I told you when, when things started to wane. I didn't, I, I knew I was on my way out anyway. And I had been wanting him to record Cher and he really resisted that, ah, because he, he wanted to be the guy. He didn't want somebody else to be the, the guy. He had Cher cut - "Ringo I Love You" as Bonnie Joe Mason. But then, ah, then we took off on our own. And I wrote, ah, "Baby Don't Go". And then I knew Phillip was kind of searching, like you said, he, he was looking, he was, ah, fascinated by the Beatles, you know. So he was compelled to get close to them like I was compelled to get close to Phil. But during that period we kind of left, we disconnected from, from Phil, for the most part, with the exception of, after I wrote "Baby Don't Go", ah, I saw Phil and I, I, I knew, I wanted to find out if I had a hit or not. So I asked Phil if he would buy half of the publishing for 500 dollars. And he just wrote a check real fast. And I knew I had a hit 'cause I knew Phil had a, had an ear and when he wrote a check for that 500, it was probably the worst deal I ever made. But I, ah, I wanted to know if I had a hit. And when he wrote the check I knew I had a hit with "Baby Don't Go".

For Cher's first solo debut you picked a Dylan song, "All I Really Want To Do". How come you picked a Dylan song?

Well, like I said, Sunset Boulevard was, well, Sunset Boulevard advanced again and it became a musical Tin Pan Alley. You could walk down Sunset and the Beatles were there, Buffalo Springfield, Sonny and Cher, everybody was singing everywhere, you know. So we'd all go listen to each other. So the Byrds had, ahm, a hit out, I forget what it was but when they were in clubs they were singing "All I Really Want To Do". So, I don't think that was their single then. They had a, they had a different hit then, I don't know what "Mr. Tambourine Man", right.

Want to start that again.

Yeah, so the Byrds, the Byrds had "Mr. Tambourine Man" out but in the clubs they were singing "All I Really Want To Do". And I said, that sounds a hit. So I just, you know, you're always thinking, in those days you're thinking, what's hit, in those days you’re always thinking, what’s a hit, what’s what. So I, we just ran in the studio real fast to cover that, ah.

So you had never heard the Dylan version at that point?

No. I, I didn't hear the Dylan version of it, it was the Byrds' version. Now I'm trying to think of whether they had recorded it and it was the flip side of something or not. Anyway, I, I brought, when we went and saw them perform that's when the song came to my attention. So I went in right away, covered it, got it out first. And, ah, voom, it went right up the charts, it just flew up the charts. And it was number one. And then the Byrds come right behind and put theirs out. So the, those records went one and two for a couple of weeks, you know. Cher's and Byrds and Byrds and Cher. But I've never seen two singles of the same song hit at the same time and be one and two but that's what happened with that song. They liked both versions.

Rolling Stone in their encyclopedia of rock and roll puts you in the folk-rock category. Does folk-rock mean anything to you? Do you feel like you belong in that category for that time?

No, I, you know, I, I don't, ah, I, I didn't know Rolling Stone put me in any category. In a way, ah, I, I think Rolling Stone has a higher opinion of themselves than I do. Ah, they have suddenly become the god of music. And, and, and they're full of it. Ah, and the reason they're full of it is because whatever elitist article they want to write under the auspices of being liberal is, they never really understood what I did. And what I did was to go to dig records and get Johnny Otis to record me on a label or, or listen to gospel groups or do all the things I had to do to get where I had to go. And I resent people making judgments if they don't know what they're talking about. It's okay if they know but get all the data then make your judgment. So, ah, ah, data is always elitist to me. So wherever they put me has no significance to me. They don't know what they're talking about. My roots are gospel. I mean I was with Sam. I had to go after Sam Cooke, got fired off of Specialty Records, I had to go through all of Sam Cooke's tapes and duplicate, ah, "You Send Me" with "I'll Coming Running Back To You". That was Sam's second hit. I recorded, I did that second hit. We took this little audition piece of tape and then had Rene Hall come and duplicate the guitar sound and we duplicated every sound off of little quarter-inch audition tape. And that record sold 750 thousand. Yeah, so, you know, when you pay those kind of dues and, and people don't think that you paid those kind of dues, I. Get out of town.

They do have a place in the music society. Rolling Stone they're the gospel in a way.

They do because they did it first but that doesn't, I don't like the elite part of it. I don't like the, if, if we don't think you're cool then you're not cool, you know, ah. And so I, I don't have regard for them.