28,000 of them.

And he told them to just, he told them, he said, we're all adults here. He said, you know, you just govern yourself. Look out for the person standing next to you. Don't stand up in front of somebody so they can see. Just have consideration for each other. No one needs to tell you that. Don't let somebody else have to tell you that. And I mean he was just, he was going, and he said, he says, as a matter of fact, he says, I like it when we're close together. You paid your money to come in here, you ought to be able to, you know, come up here and enjoy the show and if you can't do that, you should go back and get your money back. [Overlapping talk] And I believe that the police would just stand back, and step aside, they'd probably end up enjoying the show too.

Because in actuality --

They did too. They ended up doing that.

Because they were rocking, they were knocking them around, when they was standing up, they were jerking them down. [Overlapping talk] You know, instead of like, sit down, you know, wow, just slamming them down in the chairs.

They ended up enjoying the show, though, and they didn't have to pay.

But you know, what I remember there about that. Is that one thing, when I was just thinking about, where we were, I just went back and looked at us on stage there, and I noticed one thing about us and I guess other groups had been like this too, you know, we're not like unique in that sense, one thing we had, we had come from rehearsing about a year, we had come from San Francisco. We had come from uh, uh, just being people that knew each other. We had an excitement, we had something new. We knew we had something new. And we enjoyed what we were doing and no one made us do it. And so when we were performing, all of that comes across. All of that comes across. We're not out there, we don't have any hidden agenda. In fact, we didn't, we weren't even cognizant of what we were doing as to the impact that we had on people. We were just having fun. [Overlapping talk] See, we weren't trying to do anything, we were just having fun, and when they got excited it made us excited because we were wondering, wow, they really like us, you know. And so we just went on and we went on.

We got off just as much as the audience did.

Sure we did.

Remember Harvard Stadium, when the horses, the police came out on the horses -- Freddie, didn't you run to the back -- [Overlapping talk]

Fred ran into the back of a horse trying to get away.

You know why that was? We were trying to time the time, we knew that when we did the last song that everyone was going to come out of the stands, so we tried to run.

-- playing, and then, and then so, you know, so many people leave, and then the last song, then you gotta run.

Somebody grabbed a handful of my hair. When we were coming out from the thing, somebody went like that. And some girl still has a handful of my hair, probably in a little baggie somewhere.

It was great. But actually the audience, one thing that we tried to do, uh, in, in our performing, and that is we tried to let the audience see that we could relate to them there. Also we could relate to what's going on in the world. We feel like they feel about it. And we played off of them. They, they let us know what song to do next. We got into them and where they were sensitive or needing, I would say where they needed healing in a certain area, a certain song would come up. That's how "Thankful and Thoughtful" would come about, or "Everyday People." Those kinds of things, we could relate to the times, and they enjoyed that. Because people need to know that entertainers can relate to where they are coming from. Plus none of us was born with a silver spoon in our mouths. And so we all know what work is about and we all know what struggle is about. You know, and so that made it all the much more better. It was just great, it was great. I think about it all the time, you know? And I always have good memories.

What was going on at that time? I understand in one of your songs, which most people don't know about…

Yes!

That was album number one.

They couldn't get it on the radio because … every city, you told me about this.

It can't, that was our first 45 if I remember correctly.

"Underdog".

"Underdog".

It was a hit in Las Vegas.

Was our first 45. And within that, around that time they had the Kent State massacre whatever you want to call it. And they did the students, and the police actually let the dogs go and fire hoses and the beatings and --

Bullets. I mean they killed like what seven students.

Protesting against whatever, a student protest. And they, uh, I just overheard that they didn't want to play it because they felt that it would be like an anthem for the students.

Same with "Burn Baby Burn"

But "Stand" was, our song "Stand" was an anthem for the students.

What does "Underdog" sound like.

It's just a song basically about a person who keeps getting a raw deal.

It's all right, though, it's a positive thing because when you're an underdog you just got to try twice as hard. And that was the thing behind that.

Is that on--

First album.

Tell me about "Thank You Falletinme Be Mice Elf", how that came about.

Well, uh, it's like, uh, a conglomeration of all the hits we did before. It was kind of like a little clever thing where he mentioned most of our other hits.

I need you start again, was "Thank You" was a conglomeration.

"Thank You" was a, a mixture of all the songs that, uh, the hit songs that we had previously, like "Dance To The Music," "You Can Make It If You Try" um, and so on and so forth, and scooby-dooby-dooby. And that's what it was. And it was just cleverly put together. It was slinky old horn lines in there, and … it was, it was a nice mixture and a big hit.

Cynthia, your trumpet was really happening, and if you could just tell us again what you were just saying, that the trumpet was actually --

Yeah, it was, you never heard the trumpet without the saxophone. We were the section. And if you heard me, Jerry was there too. And if you heard Jerry I was there two, even if I might have been turned down a little more than he or I might have been turned up a little more than he. But we were always together.

You know what people didn't know too, like this whole, well, where was the third harmony part? You know where, where it was? It was Freddie on the guitar playing that third harmony part. And people would, it was an audio illusion. Where the heck is that coming from? And we say, we ain't telling. You can't hear it. And, and Freddie, it was arranged to where he would play like, uh -- [sings] -- There are two horns -- that's the guitar riff doing the third harmony part on that. We didn't need three horns then.

Everybody chipped in and, and did their part.

One thing to, just to go along with this thing. Sly and the Family Stone, one of the things I think that helped us was the fact that, we didn't care if the guitar player was playing the traditional guitar part or not, or if the bass player was playing the traditional bass part or not. Of if the horns, it didn't matter if the musicians were playing the traditional part or not. What only mattered was this is what we want to do, this sounds good, uh, let's do this. And, and, that I think did a lot for as making us what we, what we were and came to be. Even Greg, he didn't play the traditional part. And the reason why he could not is because he realized he's working with musicians where it didn't matter.

It wouldn't fit. Nobody was playing traditional. That's what we were about really.

That's what was so great about the bass lines too.

If anything we'd stay away from that.

It was more melodic, more lyrical.

Hey, it was easy to do.

It's sometimes difficult to get, uh, well, if, if some people want me to play certain things today, I, I've gone into sessions and they say we want a guitar part, you know. Well, I don't even think guitar parts. I just think music. And so I play music. And they say well, I need a traditional guitar part. I don't know what a traditional guitar part is. Because I, I, I came up playing in church, and you get a guitar and you start playing, and you grow. I know chords and things of that nature, but I play music. And, and that's what the group was about. You need this sound, I play this. You need this run, I play this. You need a part here, we'll do that. And that's the way we did it, and it worked, and I'm glad.

Well, talk about not playing traditionally, what about Larry Graham?

Larry Gra-, now, you know, Larry Graham, Larry Graham was, now, today they say the word dope for, you know, it's happening, and cool. Well, he was dope and he was cool and he was happening. We called him, we just said he was bad, he was bad from day one. When I first saw Larry playing with his mother years ago, the brother could play then. You know what I'm saying? He came out, I mean some of us, I can see my growth and development, you know since the group until now, and, and the rest of us. Larry Graham, the brother was bad then.

Larry Graham. The brother, I'm telling you the truth, I'm not going to sugarcoat it or anything. The brother was bad day one. When I first met him, he was bad then. And I, I played with him a few times, over in Oakland, we played with his mother, his mother had a little piano bar, her name was Dell. He was walking, I mean he was playing then. And when I say him, I said, whoa, man, this guy can play. And then when I found out he was going to play with us. It's like, you know how, how, how you have a dream but you don't have any expectation of really seeing that dream come alive? When I started, when I saw Larry on the bass, automatic bad. Greg on drums, here comes Jerry, who plays like a brother, and he's not a brother, and he is playing like that, then too. Cynthia? Young lady on trumpet and she could blow. My sister, and I knew my sister, I knew she could sing. When I saw all that, it's like, all of a sudden, it's going to work. You know, your hope is built up. I'll tell you, these people right here, even today, you know, we're a little older, you know, a little more seasoned, have more substance as far as living is concerned, but each one of these musicians are actually talented today, they can play right now. I'm not just saying this. Greg plays all the time, I'm playing all the time, I'm pastoring the church, and playing all the time in church, Rose always singing, Cynthia keeps the chops up, Jerry's working, Larry I know he's been working, and I'm going to tell you, these people here, it's like, I feel I'm blessed to have worked with these people. Because see, I couldn't have done what I did without these people. I mean, let me tell, we'd get on stage -- [Overlapping talk] -- the way some of the things would come together. We'd just be playing. One person would do something else. And he'd say ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, turn the whole groove, we're into something else. And as soon as one person would turn it then Cynthia would follow suit, then Greg would, oh, okay, instead of doing like this -- [makes drumming noises] -- then when he did that, and then Sly would, sometimes Sly wouldn't even be in the room, he'd come in and hear what we're doing, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold, no, don't stop that, don't stop that, hold it right there, hold it right there, hold it right there. And then we'd playing it, we'd be laying on it, then Larry would come in with that groove. [Graham bass impersonation] And he'd put that thing in there, and I'd get a lick, and as soon as Larry get on the groove, I'd say, okay, I found my little spot, everybody had a spot that they could get in, I found my spot.

And then the horns would come in.

And Sly would go -- [Overlapping talk]. Hold it, hold it, hold it. Okay, he said, now Jerry, you all stay right there, and when I tell you, when I tell you, take that, take that pro-, what key are you in, G, G, okay when I tell you to, go up to A, go up to A, …A, and then he'd say, okay, now, one, two, three, everybody go up to A, and the thing it would shift, and when it would shift, it would produce another groove. And then somebody would say, do something different. And I say, ohhhhhhhh, here we go again. But anyway that's how things would come about. And we'd just have fun doing that because, hey we're rehearsing, we love each other, we're proud to say we could do anything we wanted. So that's what we did, had a great time, great time.

Do you remember the first song that we played the first time we rehearsed, the first rehearsal.

The jazz riffs.

No, no, it was not. No.

The first song that we did was the first rehearsal ...

I was only kidding.

It was like, um, a Wilson Pickett tune.

You didn't make it then. No 25,000 dollars for you.

Otis Redding? Otis?

Nope. Next?

I was going to go with Er-.

Yeah.

"I Don't Need No Doctor" by Ray Charles.

Oh yeah.

Am I right?

Well, Ray was one of Sylvester's, you know, favorites. Mine too.

Later on we did the jazz riffs, later on when …

Every rehearsal we did a little section, we add on to each song. And it turned out to be a thing to where people would say, how did you learn that? You say, oh, you know.

What were some of the other influences? Ray Charles.

James Brown.

Aretha, Otis Redding. Good company.

Some of the people that we liked --

Pat Boone.

-- in that day. We liked, um, Otis, uh, liked Otis Redding, we liked Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin --

Well, we did what we did.

When we started doing, uh, when we started working, we started doing the top 40 tunes of that day, and so we were doing things from like Wilson Pickett --

But we'd rearrange everything.

We'd arrange. But we couldn't do everything, we wouldn't let them stay the same. We'd rearrange everything. We'd do "Try A Little Tenderness" by Otis Redding. "Mustang Sally," "Tell It Like It Is", we did "Can't Turn You Loose" by Otis Redding.

"I Was Made To Love Her." "Signed, Sealed, Delivered." We did things that some groups couldn't do

"St. James Infirmary."

Beautiful. She played a solo at the beginning, just quiet, we did that at Winchester Cathedral. Now that was one of the, ahh, that was like, uh -- [Overlapping talk] Just specially for us. And we'd go there after we went and played another club in Oakland called French's, which was a great place, I'll tell you. And I had mentioned earlier about New York being home, but Frenchie's for the West Coast and Winchester Cathedral, that was like the, the, that was like the incubator, that was where we were birthed from so to speak. Frenchie's was great. We'd leave there, drive across the San Mateo Bridge, go and play the Winchester Cathedral, like 2 o'clock, we'd play like from 2 to maybe 8 or something. It was great. We did all of our own thing, most of our own music. And the people came to hear our own music. And when you get it like that and you're coming, you're fresh and you're new, then you know that people really like you for what you are and what you're doing. So we felt that was like a special time. Great, great, great. Cynthia played a solo, she probably still plays it, but I mean she would play, and we would just, every time she would play, we'd be amazed at her playing. And we heard her all the time. But she would always add something a little different, and you could tell. Musicians, when their heart is sincere, it comes across in the music, and that's where her heart was. And it would come across and people would come just to hear Cynthia play. And they'd just sit there amazed and smiling. It was great.

Well, I heard you did a bad imitation of Lou Rawls.

Well, Larry Graham did Lou Rawls. He'd do "Tobacco Road", "The Shadow of Your Smile." All that stuff, he sounded just like Lou Rawls.

Whatever, you know, we had fun. It's like, the thing that I still emphasize and that I still remember about the group. We could do anything we wanted to do. No one was over us. So when we came up with a new song, Larry like doing "Tobacco Road." We had no scruples about, you know, anything. So Larry said, let's do it like Lou Rawls do it. You know, so that's where he'd go. We'd do like Otis Redding, we'd just go like where he goes. Or we did like, we did "Satisfaction". You know, we just did it like, it was like fun, it was just fun. And that's, I emphasize that, because when it's no more fun, then it becomes work, and work, and it's good when you can work, and have fun, and have fun at work and let your work be fun and let your fun be work. But when it's just work then it's no good.

We were talking about how bad Larry Graham was. What made him so bad? Because I understand his whole approach to the bass was different.

Larry Graham, how he started, he played drums on bass, he played rhythms, which was unusual at that time. Bass players would play more just melodically, they'd, we'd, they'd be a catalyst for a chord that was played, like with the horns and keyboard and guitar. But Larry started playing, his mother, he played with his mother in a nightclub, and the drummer would often not show up, you know. So he would, and they had no drummer that night, so, and it was only a trio. So he, his mother, I remember Larry telling me this, you know, his mother would ask him, you know, play the rhythm while you play progressions on the bass. So he started doing that, and he'd actually start popping and playing accents while he was playing melodically the low end on the bass, and that's how he developed that whole beginning --

And that was the beginning of the slap bass.

And that's how he developed that. So it was like, it was a thing --

It was a necessity.

Yeah, and that was --

And it got more, it started off --

And then he applied that to R and B, rhythm and blues and rock, more aggressive music, that was like nightclub stuff. So which would, it fit even more, I mean because of course it was rhythm and blues, it was rhythm, that was the foundation of it. So it was just the natural progression to go there. To accent it.

I'd also like to talk about Woodstock.

Woodstock.

Nobody remembers Woodstock. You remember Woodstock?

The whole atmosphere, the whole beginning of Woodstock, when we found out that we were going to do Woodstock, we didn't think, we just thought it was another gig.

Yeah, that's right.

Just a little gig.

Well, it was.

We didn't necessarily want to go at all.

It was raining, and mud.

All those naked, muddy people out there.

But I tell you my big thrill, personally speaking, I don't know about everybody else, but my personal thing was when we started playing it was dark.