Well, when you write a song, it's, um, it's, it's real deep. You, your concentration level is focused. And you don't have no distractions. You can't have distractions when you're writing a song, because you're actually really putting your, you're putting your all into it. So it's hard to show how you write a song unless you actually really are writing a song.

If you were let's say playing the opening notes and I understand that you were writing songs you were really trying to customize them.

Yeah.

So did you write "For The Love of Money" for the O'Jays?

We wrote "For The Love Of Money" for the O'Jays. In fact what we used to try to do is tailor make the songs for the artists, so that, um, that each artist that we had basically sounded different. None of the songs and none of the artists sounded alike. They all sounded different, they all did different styles. Even though most of their instrumentation and then the people were the same, but the songs were different. So we sort of tailor made, you can get the same tailor to make clothes for everybody, but he makes them different. That's the way we did with songs, custom made songs for different artists.

I understand because you're so gifted as a singer, and you really --

I mean, I sing all right.

He gets his point across.

Yeah, I get the point across. I mean, I'm not no singer, because if I was a singer then I'd have sang all them songs. See, I'm basically a songwriter, you know.

But the edge is, a person that can stimulate feelings.

Yeah, I can, well, what we used to do is --

You know, it's like --

A style, you see, basically that's what it is you know. A singer got to have a lot of heart. You know, he's gotta go out there and really want to be on stage in front of a lot of people. We used to work on a stage, but you know, that was never really my, my desire to do it like that.

One of the things I understand, this is again Joe Tarsia telling me this, is that when you work on a song, you would actually, as you were vocalizing, pulling the words together in the style of that artist you were designing for.

That's true. We would try to write songs that would fit, uh, the artist's personality, and also too it was, well, shaping, shaping their careers and trying to give them longevity. Because the songs that we were writing were songs that we felt that everybody could sing. And they were not just a hit record, these were hit songs. And so that's the way it turned out that these songs were still around today. I mean 20, 25 years, and you still hear these songs on the radio every day. So it was songs that we were really concentrating on. And we had good singers, singing great songs.

What was special about Eddie Levert? His voice and his way of singing?

He was powerful, that's the word I want to use. Is, uh, Eddie was, Eddie could stir up people with that voice. I've seen him do it, you know, in his concerts. Eddie was, uh, he was a se-, serious performer. A no nonsense entertainer Eddie Levert. And I enjoy watching him in the studio. He has that same level of energy that you see him perform on concerts is in the studio when he's overdubbing his voice on the songs.

I wonder if you could play for me just the first few bars of "For The Love Of Money" and if you could give me an example of how you put those lyrics together, in Eddie's style.

Well, see it wasn't really for, it wasn't just for Eddie. See, it was for the O'Jays, for a group, so Walter is as integral a part of the singing process as Eddie was. A lot of people see Eddie because he's a little more flamboyant or whatever. But Walter was really the voice that stabilized the group also too. So he played a very important part and um -- And what a lot of people didn't know, in the background, Walter not only sang his tenor part, but he sang bass, he sang three or four different parts, he also sang lead. So he, so he and Eddie together was like a good team together, you know. So, um ... They were great. And "For The Love Of Money" is really basically, uh, is basically background. It was like a catchy thing, you know, money, money, money, that's what it was. One of those hooks, that's what it was.

One of the things that really distinguishes your music is you seem to be very attracted to these unusual voices. When you were looking for people to sign, what was that it attracted you.

I think their uniqueness. They're different, you know?

I'm sorry, I just need you to start that --

Well, the uniqueness of a person's voice and I guess the character had a lot to do with it. You know, like even back during the days of the Intruders, Little Sonny had a voice, and still has a voice that, I mean, I haven't heard a voice like it yet. You know, Eddie Levert has got a real unique voice. I mean, Lou Rawls.

Teddy.

Teddy Pendergrass. Patti LaBelle. All of these people were, um, you know, and many of the other ones that we worked with, like Archie Bell --

Archie Bell and the Drells.

Archie Bell and the Drells. You know, these, Joe Simon, Wilson Pickett, all these, these were people that we worked with, these people were unique and had, had a certain ability to interpret songs and that's what, uh, Gamble and Huff needed was a voice and an artist to interpret our songs. And bring them the words and the music to life.

"Don't Let The Green Grass Fool You."

Wilson Pickett.

How did that come about for Wilson Pickett?

Boy. Well, "Don't Let The Green Grass Fool You," we were um,, that's when we were independent producers, and we were working with Atlantic Records.

Jerry Wexler.

Jerry Wexler and Ahmet Ertegun. And we recorded Archie Bell first, and we did "I Can't Stop Dancing," "There's Going To Be A Showdown," all of those records. And then the people from Atlantic wanted us to record Dusty Springfield, Wilson Pickett, and the Sweet Inspirations. So we cut all three of them. And um, Dusty Springfield, we had a good album with her. We had a real good album with her. We did "A Brand New Me" with her, which was a big record for her. And Wilson Pickett, "Don't Let The Green Grass Fool You" was actually written by, uh, four guys, called, we called them the Corner Boys, but they wrote the song. And I tell you that was a, that was an exciting session.

Yeah.

That was an exciting session with an exciting artist, Wilson Pickett.

The shouter.

Yeah, he'd scream.

When that session happened, how did he work with you? Who set the pace there?

We set the pace.

Yeah.

We set the pace. He was anxious, very, very anxious, too anxious all the time. But he, we got along good with him, we got along good with him. I think it was different for him and it was different for us, you know, the type of artist that he was, and we managed to get not only one hit out of him, we got two or three hits out of him. We got "Engine Number Nine" and at that time we were entitling all the albums "Wilson Pickett in Philadelphia" and "O'Jays in Philadelphia" -- we were trying to build Philadelphia, so that album was important to us. And that goes, Wilson Pickett that was a big record for us.

It didn't take him no time at all.

How did he, was he able to, because, you work in so many different styles and one didn't necessarily associate the Philly sound with Wilson Pickett.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, but we could do anything. We could do any kind of music. We did any kind of music. We cut Joe Simon, we cut Laura Nyro, we cut, uh, uh, we cut everybody, Patti, what about the Soul Survivors? You know, I mean, we cut all kinds of acts, I mean, it's really the songs. And so, but Wilson Pickett was --

It was a thrill to us.

This guy would take two takes and that's it. And that's the kind of artist he was and that's the kind of artist we like to work with, artists that were into it. He was into it, you didn't have to coax him. He was like a --

Well, "Engine Number Nine" was like spontaneous. With the rhythm section and, uh, striking that groove.

He loved it. See, he loved music, he loved singing. And that's the kind of artist you want to work with, an artist that loves in there singing.

Well, for Wilson Picket, "Don't Let The Green Grass Fool You" was a little different from other songs that he did, "Mustang Sally" and whatever, because "Don't Let The Green Grass Fool You" had a great sing-along to it, a melodic funk that it more or less like had. So it was a good combination for Wilson.

Speaking of funk, where does funk fit in to your music?

Somewhere down there amongst those basses and drums, you know, those bass line hooks. That's a word just to define a certain feeling.

Would you say that for me again, but just say funk is a word that defines a certain feeling.

Okay. Now? Okay, funk is a word that most music people use as a certain feeling that they get from a certain groove that happens somewhere down amongst the bass and the drums. A guitar lick.

Where would James Brown fit into the whole funk thing?

The Godfather.

James Brown.

What a guy. You ever seen James Brown perform you'll never forget it. I seen a show with James Brown in his earlier days with um, Sam and Dave, it was on the same show and that was like the battle of the bands. That was a, a lesson within itself, if anybody was into like pure rhythm and blues, you know, like the best, here in Philly at the Civic Center. Never forgot that show. Must've stayed there all day just listening to that music and the way those musicians was playing it, it's just unbelievable.

Did that filter into your approach to the music?

Yeah, certain feels. See, if, it made me say that, uh, as a recording artist, you've got to have the ability to transform that music from the studio to the stage, to entertain the public. So if you can do that and create excitement for yourself it means more, more album sales, more record sales, if you're a great entertainer, not just a recording artist. A person that can go on that stage and, and rouse those people up, that's a, that's a talent within itself. And then most of our artists did that.

When you were getting started, going back to your early days in Philly, who was Dick Clark and how important was he to Philly music at the time.

Well, I think Dick Clark was, um, was important to, uh, to the whole industry, not just to Philadelphia, but to really the establishment of rock 'n' roll and, and contemporary music into American culture. Bandstand became, became, made rhythm and blues, rock 'n' roll --

A household word.

A household, American culture. It came right into the homes of everybody every day. I used to watch Bandstand just about every day, especially when, you know, one of my favorite artists was going to be on there. And uh, it was um, --

If you was an artist, and you was on Bandstand, you though you finally arrived.

Bandstand was --

Bandstand was --

It's like an institution, Bandstand.

Bandstand plays your record, you knew you had a smash.

Was it hard to get Black music played on American Bandstand or was it easy?

Well, I think Black music has had its struggles with getting exposure everywhere. Because all you got to do is go back to the days, even during Bandstand, you know, they would play, uh, Hank Ballard had "The Twist" out, but they really didn't play Hank Ballard's "Twist," they played Chubby Checker's version of it. I mean, Little Richard had um, "Lawdy Miss Clawdy" or --

"Good Golly Miss Molly."

"Good Golly Miss Molly," they played Pat Boone's. Pat Boone recorded those songs also too, and they didn't play Little Richard's. But eventually Little Richard's records and Hank Ballard's records sort of won over. And so, Black music has had its, um, has had its struggles because I think of the images that America wanted to project. America had a certain image it wanted to project and, but it seems as though that the people wanted something else, because they've accepted the music and the people for what it is, you know, and that's a good thing.

And well, for Black record to get on Bandstand, it would have to be tremendous sales. For a Black record to get on Bandstand?

Well, it had to be something that Bandstand wanted. You know, even for a black person to get on Bandstand, not a Black record, a black person to get on Bandstand and dance. You know, I mean, you never seen no black and white people, I mean you never see no mixed couples dancing on Bandstand. I mean, like today it's totally different. You know, but Bandstand was pretty much a basic, mid-America show. I mean, every now and then you would see a black couple on there, and they would probably be introducing the new steps and things like that. You know, most of those dances that they did on Bandstand basically came from the black community.

Did you ever try to get them to integrate?

Bandstand? I went up there a couple of times to try to get in there. But I mean, I never got in there.

I enjoyed watching it a lot.

Yeah, I used to watch it every day, but I mean I never got in there, and I don't even know nobody that ever got into Bandstand, even to be honest with you there. You know, they had their regulars. They had their regulars, and the people on Bandstand, they were stars themselves. But they had a show here in Philadelphia called Mitch Thomas, which was like a black version of Bandstand, which was very popular here in Philadelphia, and you know, they had some great dancers on there, you know, where guys would get on there do the ballroom and, I mean it was unbelievable, the kind of dances that was on the show. So, you look at MTV today and you see, I mean that kind of mentality, it don't even exist no more.

Well, considering how difficult it may have been for black folks to get on American Bandstand, how important was Soul Train? Did Soul Train impact on your ability to sell your music? Sorry, cut.

Talking about Soul Train, how important was that for the marketing of music?

Soul Train to me was the best presentation of music, period. Soul Train was the beginning of the multi-ethnic, multicultural concept of America. Soul Train was, I mean you had all types of people on Soul Train, dancing, beautiful people. And uh, Soul Train represented what, what urban America was. Youth, beauty, you know, wonderful dancers and great music. And we just happened to have, uh, an opportunity to work with Don Cornelius and do the Soul Train theme, which was beautiful for us, and um, was a great experience for us, and I'm just glad that we was able to work with him and, uh, and with MFSB, the orchestra, and the Soul Train theme, because it did a lot for us. That was a number one record all around the world, that theme song from that dance show. And so, Don Cornelius was exception. So he put it all together and I think he helped market and merchandise and package, especially black acts in a way that they've never been presented before. So that was comparable I would say to Bandstand. And especially even with longevity, Soul Train was --

Good exposure.

Same thing, you be on Soul Train, and boy it was, sales would explode.