Tell me about "You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’".

Ah, "You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’" was probably the greatest record that I, I've ever been involved in. I think it was the apex of Phil's creative genes. It, it represented something to him that was a total departure. There was nothing like it happening. As a matter of fact he, he was really concerned because the record ran 3:50, three five O at that point in time and that's when records were at premium to be held under three minutes, two and a half minutes was what everybody was aiming for. And here he had a record that ran 3:50 and there was no way to cut it to make it any shorter because it lived as, as it was and not any other way. And I was responsible, I feel a little guilty about it now, but I said, well put 3:05 on the, on the label and say it was a typographical error because it should have said 3:50. And, ah, he did. And he got some heat from it. But people, he used to bring people he respected in after the record was finished, before it was released, into the studio to listen. And we, we literally spent hours because nobody would settle for one play through. They'd play it again and again and again probably because they didn't believe it. And, ah, it was, it was one of the great, it was one of the great records from a sales standpoint too 'cause it didn't just leap off the charts. It started up the charts very slowly and built week by week. And I'm sure before it ever reached the top ten it had sold well over a million.

If you had to describe the Wall of Sound, how would you describe it?

Ah, the Wall of Sound, ah, of course, I don't know who coined that, probably some eastern disc jockey. I don't think anyone knows what the wall of sound but it was a un.., unique sound in that all these instruments were melded together to create this fabric, unique to the industry. And Phil spent, all his., I know he heard it in his head, he heard everything in his head. And it was up to us to get, to get it for him. But it was a melding with the echo chamber but the echo chamber was not the thing that created it. It would have been a Wall of Sound without an echo chamber but it was the melding of all the guitars, pianos, basses, drums, horns, strings, voices, all of this into the one sound that created the walls, as it became known.

What were the sessions with Tina like?

Ah, "River Deep, Mountain High" was, was probably Phil's greatest disappointment. And part of it was due I think to the fact that he was reaching beyond where the technology would let him go. Phil as always stretching as, as much as he could 'cause he heard and new and different things. And I just think we weren't able to keep pace. Although "River Deep, Mountain High" was a great record and Tina a great artists. To watch her work when she over-dubbed her voice on that, to watch her work was a thrilling experience. As a matter of fact she asked if it would be alright, we were alone in the studio actually, it was just Phil and myself, Ike was there and she was in the, in the studio and she asked if we would darken the studio and she could take her blouse off 'cause she was used to working shows where she was using a bra or skimpy clothing on, on the shows. She did all these great shows. And we said, sure. And of course we used a snooper scope so we could watch her. No, we didn't do that but she was a beautiful woman and she had a beautiful body. And, and to see her move while she was singing this song was a, a tremendous experience.

I read that Phil really worked her hard trying to get the sound of that record.

On "River Deep, Mountain High" Phil worked, ah, very hard but I don't think Phil worked Tina any harder and probably not as hard as he had worked some other artists 'cause Tina was just there naturally. All he had to do was capture her. She was the one who worked it. I don't think Phil had to coach much, if any, from her which he did on other artists.

Was "River Deep, Mountain High" the most extravagant production to date? Was there more instrumentation?

In "River Deep, Mountain High" the instrumentation was

the most we've ever used. Phil kept trying to go further and further into creating more sound than we could give him probably. But, ah, he used instruments and, ah, I'm not sure it was his most creative effort, I still, to me his most creative effort would have been "You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’". He may disagree with that but that's my feeling.

Do you think he could have kept making records like "You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’" and stayed in the industry a little more?

As far as Phil recreating what he'd already done, he could never do, well, he, he could have done it but he wouldn't do it. That was not what he, he could have put out bubble gum records 'cause he knew, he knew how to make a hit record. He could have done that. And I remember we talked about it once. And he said that wasn't, that wasn't his goal in life and, and he didn't want to be doing that. So everything, and that's true of, of most, probably every great artist, they've got to go from a point to a point. They don't repeat themselves. And they all fail eventually because they, they can only go so far.

Was Phil getting more eccentric during this time period?

As far as Phil's eccentric, I was going to, as far as Phil's eccentric behavior, after "River Deep, Mountain High" and the unfavorable, generally unfavorable reviews in this country that he got. While in England it was a smash. Ah, he became withdrawn and, and much more eccentric than he had been, ah. And he kind of, it, it was a semi-retirement, soon to go into a pretty full retirement and then to come out to work with the Beatles later on.

Sonny Bono ... Phil on an airplane.

Phil on an airplane? Never happen. No, he went on airplanes. I admire his courage. And he still goes on airplanes and he's still frightened to death of airplanes but that never stopped him. He had one occasion where for, for one reason or another he said he got on a plane, he looked around at the faces and he imagined that they all looked like losers to him and he saw the headlines of this plane going down. So he panicked and created a furor and they ended up coming back into the terminal and sending him away and they didn't let him fly for a while. But to his credit he, he gets back in airplanes. And speaking of Phil and airplanes, the, the one thing that really is paradoxical is that the only serious accident he's ever been in has been an automobile accident.

He always wanted… he always wanted Bobby to, to do more. As a matter of fact the reason we did, now when we did the album, "You've, You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’" Phil wasn't involved with the album then when, when we first did it because Phil's concept of an album was to get enough single records to create an album. When he had enough singles then he'd come out with an album. And I said to him and I feel directly responsible for making a lot of money for this I said, you have to come out with an album that's got the name "You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’" on it 'cause it's going to sell just by the name. And I said, you know, Bill, ah, who used to produce, would produce all of the stuff before, I said, we can go into the studio on a weekend and do, you know, eight or ten songs to put in the album along with "You've Lost That Lovin’ Feelin’". You don't even have to do it but let Bill do it. But he, he got Bobby on, on "Unchained" because he wanted Bobby to have a solo. .… It was either "Ebb Tide" or "Unchained" I don't remember which one he had and then Phil did, did the other one when he realized how good that was. …. But, ah, but, yeah, that's how strongly they, they worked as a group that he felt responsible, that he had too much to do. And as a matter of fact if you recall or if you've listened to when they went out and they did, ah, what's the song they did that emulated "Lovin’ Feelin’"?

"Be My Soul and Inspiration"?

"Soul and Inspiration" Bobby had more to do in it than he did in "Lovin’ Feelin’" 'cause that's…

So you didn't engineer that?

No, no.

Did they record that in LA?

They did it at United Western.

That and a vasectomy.

I'm glad we got that on tape. If you could about the number of tracks

Ah, it's, it's interesting, you know, with the consoles today and, ah, the number of, of tracks and the seemingly endless supply of microphones available, we had, when we were doing Wall of Sound we had twelve microphone inputs on the rotary knobs. And, ah, well, I, I know in some cases it turned out better because of that because the artists, the musicians I'm talking about now, did their stuff. Later on we grew to putting on four and five, ten microphones on a set of drums and I remember one overhead microphone and one on the bass drum, 'cause that's all they had available and it was great sound because the drummer played and we got his sound instead of the studio, the way we wanted it. And he was always better than we were. At any rate, ah, the, the twelve microphone inputs created some problems for us. Some of the time we had more instruments in there than I had microphones available for them. Well I had, I had plenty of microphones I just didn't have any place to plug them in. So at times I would pull a plug on a microphone and I remember telling Phil one time, ah, I wanted an acoustic guitar where I'd pulled a microphone out. And I said, well, you can send him home, we don't need him because nobody is going to hear him in this. And he said, nobody goes home, everybody stays, everybody, nobody moves. He hated to give breaks. He did it because the union required it but he hated to give breaks 'cause he hated people to move when he was approaching his sound.

So his sound complex, ... playing together at the same time? Everyone had to be there playing.

Well the, the sound as it evolved, as it came out over the speakers, that Phil heard, meant that it was there because everybody in the room was there the way they were. And he wasn't willing to take a chance even though maybe the sound wouldn't have changed had someone left but maybe it would have. And so the only way it was acceptable to him was the way it was. And he's probably right because each body that was in there provided a dampening of the sound and, ah, I'm sure it would have been a little different. And maybe people wouldn't have noticed but Phil would have. And it would have made the record less than it was.

Did Brian Wilson come there often?

We used to get, ah, various artists would come around to Phil's sessions. One of the, one of the ones who would come whenever he could was Brian Wilson. Brian idolized Phil and Phil totally respected Brian. Of course Brian would end up playing piano or percussion or whatever because no artist ever got into Phil's sessions for free. And they loved doing it I mean there wasn't anybody who ever backed out from getting a chance to play.

When the Beatles arrived in 1964 was that a shock for Phil? Some people felt threatened by the British invasion, that new sound.

With the English and particularly the Beatles a lot of people felt threatened by that sound. Phil was never one. Phil always respected, I, I've never heard him ever speak ill of talent. He respected people who made music. And there wasn't a jealous bone in his body, what used to really get him aggravated and, ah, very incensed were the people who took credit for the people who actually created.

So he wasn't put off by the British invasion?

He loved the Beatles.

Did he listen to their records?

Oh he listened to music, he listened to all the records. He listened to the music of the Beatles of all the English acts and, ah, I, I never heard him, oh, I've heard him speak ill of music, the bubble stuff to him was not but, but as I, as I said, Phil respected anyone who created music and not people who either copied or took credit for other people's creations.

Could you hear Phil's influence on Brian Wilson's records?

Ah, Brian of course was a, an ardent fan, Brian Wilson was an ardent fan of Phil Spector as were a lot of people at that time. But Brian who at that point in his career was one of the most outgoing, ingenuous people that I've ever met, he, he didn't have any, any axe to grind, he just loved making music and he loved being around Phil's creativeness. And I, I'm sure some of it rubbed off on Brian. I know he, he wrote one song that he hoped that the Ronettes would do and they didn't do it, he did it himself the Beach Boys did it. I can't think of the name of it. [ASIDE].

Brian, Brian Wilson was influenced I know by Phil, even wrote a song once for, that he was hoping, I can't believe that I can't remember the name of that song for 30 seconds.

In the very early days before you worked with Phil, did you want to be around?

Ah, in the, in the early days before I got to work with Phil and he was working with Stan Ross I disliked him intensely. He rubbed me the wrong way, he rubbed most people the wrong way, still does rub most people the wrong way. And of course as I grew working with him and knowing him and getting to where he lived, I realized how much I loved Phil. And I kept thinking of the, the song that he wrote about his father "To Know Him Is To Love Him" is so apropos of Phil because if you know Phil, everybody that knows Phil - that's probably not true, most people that know Phil love him because inside lives this very vulnerable little boy and he needs to be loved.