...YOU WERE TELLING US ABOUT THE GENERAL STATE OF ATOMIC PHYSICS IN THE SOVIET UNION IN THE '20S, AND HOW IT CHANGED... THERE WAS MORE OF AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND HOW IT CHANGED, TELL US ABOUT THAT.

Uh, I would say that in the '20s, there were still some contacts between Russian scientists and the western scientists. And it happened that for example several physicists at different time worked in the laboratories,...and also together with Niels Bohr, that was in the '20s. In the '30s, because of ideological barrier which has risen enormously at that time, the contacts were deteriorated and I would say Soviet physicists practically had no good contacts in the '30s with their western colleagues.

SO WHAT—COULD YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE '30s, IDEOLOGICALLY THAT ELIMINATED THIS INTERNATIONAL CONTACT—WHY DID IT STOP?

We were no... that was always the how do you say, idea... ideological divergence between the west and uh the Soviet Union growing since evolution and I would say the contacts which were inventors (?), they were just in my opinion traditional contacts which existed still in pre-revolutionary time and they were not broken immediately but I would say in the '30s the situation in the Soviet Union changed drastically. First they have to recollect that in the '30s there was a wave of terror, real terror in Stalin time and that of course affected the whole society in the Soviet Union and also affected the scientists. For example biology in its part related to genetic... most practically destroyed completely that was the situation and I would the atmosphere at that time was, I would say very tense in the country and it was this time practically the contacts with foreigners were interrupted and I would say at that time was even rather difficult to have contact because it was dangerous one could be accused of a crime with the...that's what I'm working with was the situation of the Soviet Union in the '30s. That's why in fact scientists work in very difficult situation because they were practically without any ties with the cer... with the western scientists and the only source of information for them was just scientific journals.

DURING THE REIGN OF TERROR... HOW WAS IT THAT NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS MANAGED TO ESCAPE THE PURGES?

Oh that's interesting question because really later on nuclear physics has grown to very important branch of science in the Soviet Union. But the situation was in the '30s that most of scientists who worked in the nuclear physics at that time, they were young. I would say the average age was about 30. Uh, practically to my knowledge none of them was party members. That means they were practically completely outside of any political activity. On the other hand the nuclear physics at that time was considered as a branch of science of no practical importance at all and to some extent nuclear physicists at that time appeared to be in the shadow. The repressions in fact touched mainly in such towns, such...says and Leningrad, at the top and the middle personnel, in the industry in army, in party, the...and also those who were engaged in some way in human relations but in the case of nuclear physics it was considered to something extremely insignificant and it's to my feeling nuclear physicists just escaped to be noticed at that time, that helped them.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT IN THE LATE '30S THE LEVEL OF SOPHISTICATION OF NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS IN THE SOVIET UNION WAS AS GOOD AS IN THE WEST... THE LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING AND PARTLY THAT WAS DUE TO THE FACT THAT NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS ESCAPED THE PURGES RESPOND IN A SHORTER WAY TO THIS QUESTION...

You know if to talk about nuclear physicists it happened so that in fact the interest in nuclear physics appeared only at the beginning of '30s. And this is in...the role and mind of the young physicists like I wouldn't say that in fact high level of nuclear physics was just because they escaped terror, but I would say the main reason that the level was rather high that it was continuation of physics development in Russia and later in the Soviet Union. And for example I would say it's in the pre-revolutionary time there were very good scientists in Russia. Among them I would, for example, mention Friedman (?) who worked—started his work as a physicist before revolution and is known now as one who created the model of expanding universe, very important to know. But in fact if you talk why nuclear physicists escaped repressions in the '30s I have to repeat the same that in fact the nuc—

START AGAIN AND SAY: NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS ESCAPED THE REPRESSION IN THE '30s BECAUSE...

I think that nuclear physicists escaped repressions because a small group of physicists which worked at that time in fact was considered as involved in the problem which were not important or the practice. That's my opinion.

WHEN THE WAR STARTED IN 1939, WHAT WAS--DID THAT AFFECT NUCLEAR RESEARCH IN THE SOVIET UNION WHEN BOTH THE SOVIET UNION AND GERMANY INVADED POLAND?

No, in fact the beginning of the war did not affect nuclear physics. It was affected very practically only when the war was Germany started until in that time it was developing quite normally.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT HOW 1938...HOW THE NEWS OF THE DISCOVERY OF FISSION...AND HOW PHYSICISTS REACTED TO THAT?

We have to talk about the development nuclear physics in the Soviet Union one has first of all to pay attention to a group which worked in Leningrad in the Leningrad Physics Technical Institute. That was a group headed by Kurchatov and this group star... started in the '30s to start nuclear reactions and when fission was discovered by German scientists then immediately Kurchatov started some investigations in this field too. I would say in... you have to talk about this group of scientists in Leningrad. This group of their interests in physics,...And it happened that some of them later has grown to the leaders of Soviet nuclear problem, but in the case of Kurchatov I would say that he was concentrated his attention to the study of fission, that is very important.

...AT WHAT POINT DID PHYSICISTS IN THE SOVIET UNION START TO THINK THAT AN ATOMIC BOMB COULD BE DEVELOPED?

Uh, since fission was discovered and it was clear that potentially that is a source of energy of course physicists started to think about possibility of using fission for practical purposes. And here I would say that situation in the Soviet Union was rather good because among Soviet scientists, there also solves before started chain reactions. But I mean chain reactions in chemistry. And here for example I have to mention first of all the name of...who received Nobel Prize for discovery for his series of chain reaction in chemistry. Then some scientists who worked with...obviously were somehow affected by the knowledge of a chain reac... in the field of chain reactions. When immediately some of the scientists could consider the possibility of chain reaction in fission and here I have a mention for example ( ). Two scientists who before the war has--have published the paper in which—in which they consider the possibility of the chain reaction in the case of fission. Then I would say...in the '40s, in 1940, he had for example one of the conferences a talk at which he considered a possibility of realizing chain reaction from fission. So I would say in general in the Soviet Union before the war, existed an understanding that of importance of chain reaction of fission and what they also started to work, to study at this time and we wish to get some specific feature of fission which could be important for producing a chain reaction of fission.

[QUESTION ABOUT KURCHATOV AND THE URANIUM COMMISION}

You know in fact I have heard of existence of such committee, but I never heard that something was done by this committee. What seems to be more—more important was that at that time...has written a paper, a report for the Academy of Sciences--

START AGAIN. [QUESTION INAUDIBLE]

In 1940, Kurchatov has written a letter which was addressed to the President of Academy of Sciences and in this letter he outlined the importance of problem a work on uranium.

[ASKS TO REPEAT THE PREVIOUS ANSWER]

You know it seems that just before the war the understanding of the possibility to create chain reaction fission was realized by physicists, that happened to the rest of the rest and the same was in the Soviet Union some physicists understood the time that the principal the chain reaction of fission was...realized. So as soon this chain reaction was realized then of course some possibilities were open practical use of this reaction. That was the reason why Kurchatov has written a letter and by this letter he wanted to attract attention to this problem and to attract more scientists.

IN KURCHATOV'SLETTER WAS HE SPECIFIC THAT THIS RESEARCH COULD LEAD TO A BOMB? DO YOU KNOW?

I don't know anything about the con—content of this letter, but I don't think it was his...anything about the bomb because at that time for example Kurchatov considered the possibility up to produce chain reaction for a mixture of natural uranium and of course this would be bomb but that would be a reactor. And of course one was that question which existed at this time, which material would be used as a moderator. But of course at that time Kurchatov have others and it's true that if we have more uranium-235 than probably it would be possible to get a chain reaction developing in a very short time.

WHAT WAS KURCHATOV'S MOTIVATION FOR WANTING TO CONTINUE THIS URANIUM RESEARCH?

You mean in 1940?

IN 1940, WHEN HE WROTE TO THE ACADEMY, WAS HE— WAS IT AN INTEREST IN GENERAL RESEARCH, WAS IT POINTING TOWARD A WEAPON? WAS IT POINTING TOWARD POWER?

I would say this was uh, pointed out that fission may be a source of energy, just conceiving it as a source of energy first of all, but not probably as a weapon. I don't believe this part.

THAT'S A GOOD POINT. COULD YOU SAY IT AGAIN AND JUST SAY THAT, TO LET US KNOW THAT IT WAS 1940, AND KURCHATOV WAS MAINLY INTERESTED IN PURSUING URANIUM RESEARCH BECAUSE OF POWER AND NOT BECAUSE OF A WEAPON AT THAT TIME.

I expect that when Kurchatov, in the 1940, has written a letter about uranium, he pursued the goal to use uranium as a source of energy. That's... but not as a weapon.

BEFORE 1931, BEFORE GERMANY INVADED RUSSIA, WERE PHYSICISTS IN THE SOVIET UNION LOOKING TOWARDS MAKING A BOMB AT ALL BEFORE THAT TIME?

No, I don't think so. Before the war...

[ASKED TO START OVER]

I don't think so. At the end of '30s, Soviet scientists obviously started study of fusion. And it seems that before the war there existed an understanding that fission may be a process of practical importance. And at that time, also, some physicists considered a possibility to produce a chain reaction fusion. But it seems that all this consideration was first of all done for natural uranium. And the natural uranium could not be used as a material for a bomb.

OK. DO A CLOSE UP NOW. SO THEN WHAT HAPPENED TO PHYSICS IN THE SOVIET UNION IN JUNE, 1941, WHEN GERMANY INVADED THE COUNTRY? WHAT HAPPENED TO PHYSICS RESEARCH?

It practically was interrupted.

...COULD YOU START BY SAYING, WHEN GERMANY INVADED THE SOVIET UNION?

When Germany invaded the Soviet Union, all the studies in the field of nuclear physics were interrupted. And most of physicists appeared to be either in the army or in military industry. In addition, I have to say that the main center where nuclear physics has been developing before the war was Leningrad. And you know very soon Leningrad appeared to be in a very hard situation.

WAS THERE ANY TALK IN THE SOVIET UNION ABOUT GERMAN PHYSICISTS DEVELOPING AN ATOMIC WEAPON THE WAY THERE WAS IN THE UNITED STATES? DO YOU KNOW OF ANY SOVIET PHYSICISTS BEING CONCERNED THAT GERMANY MIGHT BE DEVELOPING ATOMIC WEAPONS?

It was known that nuclear physics in Germany is one of the subjects of investigation. But I don't think that it was very big concern about Germany, with this respect.

MAYBE YOU COULD TELL ME NOW ABOUT FLYOROV AND HOW HE NOTICED, READING THE JOURNALS, THE ABSENCE OF ARTICLES ABOUT FISSION AND HIS LETTER TO STALIN?

In fact, Flyorov is one of students of Kurchatov, and just before the war, he worked in Kurchatov group and studied fission. And it is said that in 1942, he visited one of the laboratories and noticed that in the last American scientific journals, all publications related to fission disappeared. And that was the reason that he has written a letter to Stalin, just pointing out that maybe in the United States scientists are working on the nuclear weapon. That's what I heard.

I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO TELL THAT STORY ONCE MORE, IF YOU DON'T MIND. MAYBE YOU COULD START BY SAYING A YOUNG PHYSICIST NAMED FLYOROV, AND THEN TELL THE STORY.

But— pardon, how do you start?

A YOUNG PHYSICIST NAMED FLYOROV VISITED A LABORATORY DURING THE WAR AND NOTICED THE ARTICLES WERE--

In fact he was I wouldn't say a young physicist—

OK.

—just... better to say…

PHYSICIST.

...Physicist

MAYBE YOU CAN START BY SAYING IN 1942.

In-- In 1942, physicist Flyorov, who earlier worked together with Kurchatov, had the chance to see some American journals. And he noticed that publications related to fission disappeared. That was the reason why he has written a letter to Stalin, pointing out that probably in the— in the United States some physicists are working on a nuclear weapon.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT IN 1939, NUCLEAR PHYSICISTS AND NUCLEAR PHYSICS WAS NOT CONSIDERED VERY IMPORTANT BY THE GOVERNMENT. AND NOW IT SEEMS TO BE CHANGING BY THE FLYOROV STORY OF 1942. COULD YOU DISCUSS THAT A BIT? WHAT HAPPENED THAT MADE NUCLEAR PHYSICS BECOME IMPORTANT TO THE GOVERNMENT WHEN THEY WERE NEGLECTED IN 1932 OR '31?

I would not consider that Flyorov letter changed drastically the situation. Because it took time to under... to attract attention of other physicists to this problem. And it happened that only in '43 it was finally taken a decision to start work in this field. Because it seems to this time Soviet authorities started to believe that probably fission is a process which can be used for a weapon.

LET ME ASK YOU A SIMILAR QUESTION A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAY. WHAT WAS IT THAT CAUSED STALIN OR SOVIET AUTHORITIES TO BECOME INTERESTED IN FISSION?

Stalin and other authorities obviously were... became interested in investigations of fission because finally there was opinion expressed by several nuclear physicists that this process probably can be used for production of a nuclear weapon. I would say I did not say good enough.

DO IT AGAIN.

Stalin and other probably in the 1943, became interested in developing research in nuclear physics in the Soviet Union because to that time several physicists, and first of all, Kurchatov expressed their opinion that on the basis of fission, a new type of weapon could be developed.

WAS THERE ANY SENSE THAT THIS WEAPON WAS BEING DEVELOPED BY THE WEST?

Pardon. Could you repeat once more?

DID THE SOVIET AUTHORITIES HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT AN ATOMIC WEAPON WAS BEING DEVELOPED BY THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN?

I know, it's not so easy to answer this question, because this question concerns information which was never published in the Soviet Union. But more likely in addition to the information from Soviet scientists indicating importance of fission, in addition to this information probably existed another information just indicating directly that something is going on in the United States.

...WHEN RESEARCH INTENSIFIED IN 1943, DO YOU THINK THAT STALIN FELT THAT IT WAS POSSIBLE TO HAVE A BOMB DEVELOPED FOR USE IN THE WAR, DURING WORLD WAR II?

Probably Stalin wished to have this weapon, but I, I don't think that Kurchatov and others could promise that, because to this time,( ) in developing of war. And it was clear at the same time that to develop nuclear weapon it will take years. I wouldn't expect that such a promise was given to develop during the war.

SO THE SITUATION IN THE SOVIET UNION WAS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE UNITED STATES, PARTLY BECAUSE THE SOVIET UNION WAS IN THE MIDST OF THIS WAR. COULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT, THE IDEA THAT PURSUING THIS KIND OF RESEARCH WAS DOUBLY DIFFICULT BECAUSE OF THE WAR CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTRY?

Yeah. Obviously it was very difficult time to start this investigations. And the only motivation to start-- I would say the only motivation would be a chance that on this way a new weapon will be produced. Because the conditions were extremely difficult, because most of territory were... in the... for example Ukraine and European part of Russia were essentially occupied German... by Germans at this time.

WHAT WAS THE REACTION IN THE SOVIET UNION TO THE END OF THE GERMAN WAR? WAS JAPAN PERCEIVED AS AN ENEMY TO THE SOVIETS?

You know as soon as the war with Japan started, though of course it was something that would not be compared with Germany. And in fact it lasted only a short time. So it was not the same scale as the war with Germany.

WHEN THE WAR WITH GERMANY WAS OVER, WAS THAT A TIME WHEN RESEARCH IN ATOMIC FISSION WAS ABLE TO START GETTING MORE INTENSE?

Yes, of course, it was '45, and you know that in '46, first Soviet nuclear reactor started to operate. That means that work in this field was inves... intensified, enormously.

WHEN ATOMIC WEAPONS WERE USED BY THE UNITED STATES IN JAPAN, HOW DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THAT? WHAT WAS THE REACTION AMONG THE SOVIET PHYSICISTS?

I don't know about the reaction among physicists, because I was not involved in physics at this time. But I believe for them it was quite clear that that was an atomic explosion and so on. But for persons who were not engaged in nuclear physics, the information came from newspaper. There was a short note when it was written about this explosion. But later, of course, people tried to understand what is that. And for example, I remember that in the s... in September of '45, that's a time when I was a student of the Moscow...Institute, Lundahl has given a lecture there where he explained what is that.

SO IN THE SOVIET UNION, THE USE OF THE ATOMIC BOMB IN JAPAN WAS TREATED LIGHTLY IN THE NEWSPAPERS? PEOPLE GENERALLY DIDN'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT IT?

No, just... the only source of information was a small note in the newspapers, nothing else. So in fact people did not know what has happened.

DO YOU KNOW, DO YOU REMEMBER FROM THE TIME OR HAVE YOU TALKED TO PEOPLE SINCE, DO YOU KNOW WHAT STALIN'S REACTION WAS, WHAT THE OFFICIAL SOVIET REACTION WAS TO THE ATOMIC BOMBING OF JAPAN? DID THEY FEEL THAT THAT ENDED THE WAR?

No, I cannot say anything about what... about that. Because it was difficult to learn anything about.

AFTER THE WAR, WHY DID THE SOVIET UNION COMMIT TO A STRONG, INTENSE PROGRAM TO DEVELOP AN ATOMIC BOMB?

That's how you would say, that's a political question and I would s... I would say Soviet power probably felt... Soviet authorities felt that a new period starts when the competition between the Soviet Union and the United States starts. And obviously atomic weapon was one of the field.

SO DO YOU THINK THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT PERCEIVED THE UNITED STATES AS A THREAT AFTER THE UNITED STATES USED THE ATOMIC BOMB?

I don't know. You h... you now push me into some political problems. And I would say for the Soviet Union it was not only the problem of considering S... United States as a threat to the Soviet Union. But obviously the Soviet Union had its own goal. And you know its politics of expansion which occurred later, and in this politic, atomic weapon was very important to... for the Soviet government. I wouldn't consider that it was only a threat from the United States.

SO NOW THAT THE SOVIET UNION HAD SEEN THAT ATOMIC WEAPONS WERE BUILDABLE, IT WAS DEMONSTRATED THE UNITED STATES HAD ONE, THEN JUST TO BE COMPETITIVE IN THE WORLD, THE SOVIET UNION FELT THEY HAD TO DEVELOP THEIR OWN?

You know, the war changed drastically the position of the Soviet Union in the world. You know after the war, Soviet Union appeared to be a, a world power. And in this fear of the Soviet Union appeared such countries as Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary. And obviously, Soviet government wanted to have some additional tools to push its polity. And obviously nuclear weapon was very convenient.

...DO YOU HAVE ANY FEELINGS ABOUT THE DIFFERENCES, WHAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE SOVIET BOMB PROJECT?

For me personally, a sort of knowledge about Manhattan Project came from a report written by ( ). So I don't know for how important, how interesting it was...this was a report for physicists who were deeply engaged in into research. I would expect that this report has given a feeling of the scale of the war. I don't know if they got some important information with respect to some processing and so on. But obviously some information about the scale of research of work was obtained from this report.

DID YOU GET THE SENSE THAT THE SOVIET BOMB PROJECT WAS PATRIOTIC EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE PHYSICISTS? WAS THAT THEIR MOTIVATION?

I would say...people worked very enthusiastically. And I recollect that when I joined Kurchatov Laboratory in'49 it was really a big interest among people to work on nuclear physics. And at that time I remember people worked to just until midnight and nobody told them to do that. That obviously was something inside of people that pushed them to do that.

I HAD READ SOMEWHERE THAT PETER KAPITSA REFUSED TO WORK ON THE BOMB PROJECT. DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT?

It is difficult to get the full answer to this question somehow. But that's clear that somewhere in the '50s, no, maybe even earlier, Kapitsa was dismissed from his position of the head of the Institute of Physical Problems in Moscow. Instead of him, the new director was the present president of the Academy of Sciences, Alexander. And for a while, Kapitsa was not engaged in the scientific activity. He was just at that ( ). And that's a private house in the countryside. And he...I was told, remember at that time that in this time, he just made some investigations at home. But he was not engaged in any research related to... it was the institute which was created by him. And, it was never told that he has refused to work on nuclear weapons. But we at that time considered that he was not anymore the director as a result of his refusal to work. But it was not...openly what has happened at this time with him.

IN YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS THERE EVER ANY QUESTIONS AMONG THE SCIENTISTS ABOUT MORALITY, THE MORALITY OF WORKING ON A WEAPON LIKE THIS?

I wouldn't say such problem were of great importance among Soviet scientists. We worked at in nuclear physics. And they, in fact, you are touching here a very deep problem. And the problem of pacifism. And if you like, I shall try to answer this question. First, you have to look what was the Soviet official attitude to pacifism. You have to know that in fact, it was always extremely negative. Let's say, if you will look at the definition of pacifism, in the dictionary of Russian language,...in 1970, not a long time ago, you will find the following definition. Pacifism is a hypocratic bourgeois teaching. The goal of which is to prevent liberation the revolutionary and other justified wars. So, and, I would say to express openly any pacifistic views would be just dangerous during Stalin time. That's one point. My question is getting a little bit longer but I think I have to have something. And there is another point. In fact, Soviet scientists always realized that ideological differences between the Soviet Union and the capitalistic world, are extremely high, and it was always told in the Soviet Union that there should be intolerance to any type of ideology which comes from the West. So, and I would say Soviet scientists always realized until large great ideological differences exist, the danger of war does not disappear, cannot disappear. And for that reason, they just worked with very good conscience for weapon, always. Just considering that if the war may appear, so our country should be well equipped. So, I would say I never had any doubts among Soviet scientists in '50s, in '60s, that the development of nuclear weapon in the Soviet Union is something dangerous. Something we have to fight. We have no moral right to work on it.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOME THINGS THAT ARE MORE FAMILIAR. THINGS FROM YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE A LITTLE MORE. COULD YOU TELL US WHEN YOU STARTED TO STUDY AND WORK IN ATOMIC PHYSICS?

In 1946, a new faculty was created in the Moscow Mechanical Institute. And their aim to... of this faculty was to educate nuclear physicists. And obviously there existed a need to get more nuclear physicists. At that time, I was a student of the Moscow Aviation Institute. And in the '46, I shifted to this new faculty

WHAT WAS YOUR REASON FOR GETTING INVOLVED? WHAT WAS YOUR MOTIVATION FOR WORKING ON ATOMIC PHYSICS?

You know, I would, at the moment, when I shifted to nuclear physics, I did not know much of that. But I, but I knew that nuclear weapon exists, and so there was a feeling that something new entered in our life. Less developed than anything else, and I wanted to participate. And the same with my friends also and of this faculty (?).

COULD YOU TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE DURING WORLD WAR II? I KNOW YOU WERE YOUNG THEN. COULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN THE TOWN WHERE YOU WERE LIVING DURING THE WAR?

I was born and I lived always in Moscow, and when the war started, I was in Moscow. And of course, it was something quite unexpected. As though, as I know in fact, there was such a mood that the war will come somehow, but no— when it happened, it was quite unexpected and first of all, a big feeling of uncertainty appeared. Because you know, before the war, Soviet propaganda always just taught us that the war, if it will happen, it will go on other territory. But then we could see that the Germans are penetrating deeper and deeper into Soviet territory, and the feeling of uncertainty was growing. And in Moscow, it happened the peak of this uncertainty was in October of '41, when the German army was the distance of about 40 kilometers from Moscow.

WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER? HOW OLD WERE YOU THEN?

Ah, I was at that time fifteen. So, and I have very good recollection of this time. I remember that when German army was quite close to Moscow, then in the middle of October, it was just the danger that the war will come practically to Moscow, and at that time, it happens that in two or three days, whole industry from Moscow was shifted to the West, to the East, pardon. And most of population from Moscow shifted to the...of Siberia. And Moscow was half empty at the time.

DID YOU AND YOUR FAMILY STAY IN MOSCOW?

Yeah. My family stayed there because my father was somehow engaged in the work at factory, which was...after aviation plant was shifted to the East, but the, part of the factory remained as a workshop to repair planes. So and, that was the reason that our family stayed in Moscow.

DID YOU LOSE ANYONE IN YOUR FAMILY DURING THE WAR?

Directly in our family, nobody suffered because my father was engaged in the work in the Aviation industry. I was still visiting school at the time. I was not in army.

CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT THE END OF THE WAR IN THE SOVIET UNION? SO MANY FAMILIES HAD SUFFERED SO MUCH. CAN YOU PAINT US A PICTURE OF WHAT THAT WAS LIKE AT ALL?

I don't understand exactly, could you repeat once more.

... THERE IS SUCH A CONTRAST BETWEEN THE SOVIET UNION AT THE END OF THE WAR, AND THE UNITED STATES. THE UNITED STATES HAVING NOT BEEN INVADED, NOT VERY MANY PEOPLE HAVING DIED. WAS, IN THE SOVIET UNION, WAS, WORLD WAR II WAS DEVASTATING.

Yeah, that's true, it was, I would say Russia did not experience such war since the Napoleonic war, when Napoleon was in Moscow. But that was only you know, this war, that essentially the German army penetrated until Volga. And of course, it was such a mood to the country, that practically all families were touched by the war. I told our family did not suffer of the war directly. But of course from the sight of our relatives, there were some losses, of course. But, I would say in many families, there were big losses at this time. But I would, nevertheless, I would like to add one thing here. Though it was extremely difficult time for the country, at the same time, there was a small piece of hope that something would change after the war. Even when, that the situation change in the country, and it was clear that the war goes to the victory now. And some hopes were that something will be changed. Because I would say in the '30s, there was rather strong disillusion in the Soviet system among different layers of Soviet population. And probably war brought some hopes, which were not fulfilled.

WHAT ABOUT THE SOVIET ATTITUDE TOWARD THE UNITED STATES DURING THE WAR? TOWARD THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST? HOW DID THE SOVIET PEOPLE THINK OF THEIR ALLIES?

I would say in general what I can remember it was rather positive and friendly attitude to Americans, as a country. So I remember at the time, so movies were shown in the Soviet Union, some American movies, and also some British movies. So in general, it was feeling of I would say rather friendly. Of course, there were some questions. They have to start to open second front earlier, people expected "when will they start?" That obviously was such a feeling.

WAS THERE A FEELING OF RESENTMENT THAT IT TOOK SO LONG TO START THE SECOND…

You know, people inspect, expected when it will happen. They just were friendly to American, England, and they just expected when they will start, so, and of course, it, that was finally very important and in Europe, it was landed in Europe. But of course, it is well known that at that time it was a great support from the United States. Was, let's stay, with cars, which were used in the army. So they...knew of at the time that through ( ), some ships are coming which provide Soviet Union with some military commitment. It was known at that time.

WHAT WAS THE OFFICIAL...ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, WHAT WAS STALIN SAYING. CAN YOU THINK OF EXAMPLES OF THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD DURING '41, '45 ABOUT THE US?

I would say at that time nothing, no propaganda existed directed against the United States or England. During the war it was nothing like that. And it was always considered that they are on one side in this war. I cannot remember any strong statement at this time. Maybe there was something, but I really I cannot remember any strong statement.

DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF WHEN THAT FEELING STARTED TO CHANGE?

I think it started to change to the end of '40s. Essentially propaganda, newspapers, everything started to work in this direction. But nonetheless, I would say that if you were to look at nuclear physicists who worked at this time, let's say, at the end of '40s, I could not find among them any bad feeling towards Americans, for example. Americans at this time had the nuclear weapon and Russians were working, and as I remember, let's say '49 or '50, though the relations were extremely cold at this time, I would say, among scientists there was no bad attitude to Americans. It was considered somehow the work nuclear physics like a competition that's not, at least at the level of physicists whom I met.

BACK UP JUST A SECOND, AND ASK SOMETHING WE TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE BEFORE. RIGHT AFTER THE END OF THE WAR, WHEN THERE WAS A BIG DRIVE TO DEVELOP THE NUCLEAR WEAPON IN THE USSR, WHAT WAS THE MOTIVATION OF THE SCIENTISTS?

You know, how it happened that many scientists appeared to be engaged in atomic problem. Since this problem was approved by the Soviet government, and this laboratory started to work, the laboratory headed by Kurchatov. They started to prepare the list of persons who would be important for this project, and it happened that some persons were how to say recalled from the army to participate in this program. When the war finished, of course, more experts in different fields were engaged into this program. And I would say...to participate in this program. When the finished, of course, more expert in different fields were engages into this program. And I would say they seemed to be interested to work in this field. No doubt, it was for them interesting to work from many points of view.

DO YOU THINK IT WAS A TECHNICAL CHALLENGE, AS WELL AS A COMPETITION WITH THE UNITED STATES?

Of course, there was certainly a challenge just to create things which were developed in the United States, the country which was considered the most advanced country in the technical respect, with respect to technique. So then of course, for scientists, obviously much better conditions existed at that time. I won't say they learned how to count money this time, no. It was practically the planning of science was not just on the...of economics. But it was first of all important to perform, to carry out one experiment, for example, which was important. And this experiment was supported by all means at that time. I would say the condition to work was very good at this time.

SO THE GOVERNMENT MADE IT ATTRACTIVE TO PHYSICISTS TO WORK ON THE ATOMIC PROBLEM?

Yeah, I would say if to compare conditions under which nuclear physicists work at this time, of course these conditions were much better for any other scientists. No doubt.

...WHEN STALIN AND TRUMAN MET AT POTSDAM, TRUMAN DROPPED A HINT TO STALIN ABOUT THE UNITED STATES HAVING A BOMB, A POWERFUL NEW WEAPON. HAVE YOU HEARD ANY STORIES ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT STALIN KNEW WHAT TRUMAN WAS TALKING ABOUT? DID HE KNOW?

I think he knew but maybe he played not to show that he knows. But it's difficult for me to believe that he did not know of atomic weapon.

WHY?

Because first of all one Soviet scientist started to work in '43. Obviously he was convinced somehow by them that it is one of the ways to produce nuclear weapon. Just to work on nuclear physics. Probably they explained to him what is that. But for me it's hard to believe that there was no information at that time. Not from the physicists but from other channels, which would indicate that in the United States there was work on the field.

( ) RESPONSE...

Yeah, I would say so. That, it would really surprise...if this information did not come.

LOOK AT ME AND COULD YOU EXPLAIN AGAIN AND SAY, WHEN STALIN WAS AT POTSDAM, HE MUST HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE ATOMIC WEAPON BECAUSE, AND THEN TELL ME WHY...

Ah, when Stalin was at Potsdam, he must have known of a nuclear weapon first because the Soviet scientists at that time worked on a nuclear weapon. And also, I believe that there was information through other channels, which also indicated that in the United States, the work on the nuclear weapon is going on.

WHEN YOU SAY OTHER CHANNELS, WHAT OTHER CHANNELS DO YOU MEAN?

I mean that the intelligence service probably tried to get something. I don't know why. I was never familiar with any type, with any information of this type. But, just it's difficult to believe that it did not exist.

DO YOU THINK THAT SOVIETS KNEW ABOUT THE TEST IN THE UNITED STATES, IN NEW MEXICO?

I don't know. I have no idea.

DO YOU THINK THAT IF THE SOVIET UNION HAD BEEN CONSULTED BY THE UNITED STATES AND THE UNITED KINGDOM BEFORE THE ATOMIC BOMB WAS USED, IF THE SOVIETS HAD BEEN MADE AWARE OFFICIALLY THAT THE UNITED STATES AND GREAT BRITAIN WERE DEVELOPING AN ATOMIC BOMB, DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE SOVIET ATTITUDE?

No, I don't think it would change anything drastically, because I believe that as soon as the laboratories were created working on that problem, they would continue to work on that, on the condition of the great...conspiracy, secrecy. So I would not expect that anything would change drastically.

CAN I ASK YOU TO RESPOND TO THAT AGAIN. COULD YOU START OUT BY SAYING, "IF THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN HAD SHARED ATOMIC INFORMATION WITH THE SOVIET UNION DURING THE WAR, THAT PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE CHANGED…"

Ah, if the United States and Britain shared with the Soviet Union information on nuclear weapon during the war, this, in my opinion, in my opinion, would not change the situation. And the Soviet Union would continue research in this direction.

WERE YOU AWARE IN 1946 OF THE BARUCH PLAN IN THE UNITED NATIONS?

I would say I had heard but not much familiar with it.

OK. IN 1946, IN THE UNITED NATIONS, THERE WAS AN ATTEMPT MADE TO, FOR SOME KIND OF INTERNATIONAL AGENCY TO CONTROL ATOMIC WEAPONS. WAS, IN YOUR OPINION WAS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT THE SOVIET UNION WOULD HAVE AGREED TO SUCH A PLAN IN 1946?

No. I don't think so. Because as soon, in a... unity, appeared to create a new type of weapon, I cannot imagine that this development would not continue in the Soviet Union. I would say it would be against the nature of this state.

DO YOU REMEMBER ANY ( ). COMMENT HEARD IN THE WEST ABOUT US AND THE ATOMIC BOMB. DO YOU REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT THAT...?

I cannot recollect in detail. Of course, ( ) remembers that there were some statesmen that, you know, I would say it is necessary to disentangle all these statesmen and politicians from real development in the field of nuclear weapon. I would say none of the statements of politicians would somehow be related to real development of this program in the Soviet Union. They would pursue this development.

I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION, BUT WHEN YOU ANSWER COULD YOU LOOK AT DAVE...WE HAVE BEEN TOLD, AND WE DON'T KNOW IF IT'S SO, BUT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THE RUSSIANS FOUGHT THE WAR, WON THE WAR WITH GERMANY. AND THEN WHEN THE BOMB WAS DROPPED BY THE AMERICANS, THE SENSE IN THE SOVIET UNION WAS THAT, IN FACT, THE GERMAN WAR HAD BEEN FOUGHT FOR NOTHING. ALL THE GAINS MADE HAD BEEN LOST IN THAT ONE MOMENT. WOULD YOU SAY THERE WAS ANY SENSE...

Could you repeat it? I did not catch the question.

WE HAVE BEEN TOLD IN THE UNITED STATES THAT AFTER THE RUSSIANS WON THE WAR IN GERMANY, THERE WAS A SENSE OF VICTORY. BUT AFTER THE BOMB WAS DROPPED, IN JAPAN BY THE UNITED STATES, THAT THERE WAS A FEELING THAT THE WAR WITH GERMANY HAD BEEN FOUGHT FOR NOTHING.

No, I don't think so...when the atomic bomb was dropped in Japan, of course, it was clear that something happened in developing of weapon, of the weapon, but that would not change any thinking, the attitude to the war. I mean the war with Germany, and, no, it was not that. I would say...at that time there was not feeling among the people in the street, that a danger of new war exist in fact. There was no such feeling among the people at the time when the bomb was dropped in Japan. And I don't think that any, that changed anything in the mood of people at all.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU A COUPLE OF GENERAL QUESTIONS TOO. ARE YOU PERSONALLY SURPRISED THAT IN THIS FORTY YEARS OF THE EXISTENCE OF ATOMIC WEAPONS, THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN USED?

No. I'm not surprised that they are not used, because in my opinion, it would be much worse if nuclear weapon would not exist. Yeah, that's my personal feeling because then more likely the world would end up in the wars, with using conventional weapon. But not on the level how it is used, you know, in let's say, Iraq, Iran. But, it might happen that such countries as the Soviet Union and the United States and Germany, France would be engaged in this so, I would say both sides obviously understand that the use of weapon is very dangerous. It was, such understanding existed always, belief. And I would say, nuclear weapon is used essentially for the, by the Soviet Union as a tool to reach some goals. But maybe not to use...

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT YOU'D LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THAT WE HAVEN'T DISCUSSED? I'M STILL GOING TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT 1949... BUT IN THE EARLIER YEARS, THE WAR YEARS, 1946, THINKING ABOUT THAT?

OK... Yeah.

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU THINK THAT WE HAVE NOT BROUGHT UP YET ABOUT THOSE EARLY YEARS, FROM THE DISCOVERY OF FISSION IN '38, TO WHEN THE BOMB WAS DROPPED, ABOUT THE SOVIET SCIENTIFIC PROGRAM AND THE GENERAL ATMOSPHERE THAT YOU WOULD WANT AMERICANS OR WESTERNERS TO KNOW THAT THEY MAY NOT ALREADY KNOW?

I'm sorry.

IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE THAT YOU'D LIKE TO TELL US...

No. That's, it's difficult for me to answer this question because there are many things to discuss here but I don't know what really is interesting, more interesting for you to hear from me...

WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE FIRST SOVIET ATOMIC BOMB THAT EXPLODED IN 1949?

At this time, I started my work in Kurchatov Laboratory and I re--remember that as soon some unofficial information came to this laboratory that uh, a test was successful, that a weapon was functioning. I would say uh, people were happy in this laboratory that somehow they felt that they contributed to that.