As I say that meeting not only changed Bob it also changed the Beatles 'cause the Beatles became total potheads, the same as I was. And I thought, I thought marijuana was a wonder drug, I thought that it helped artistically, that it freed the mind, opened the doors of perception as Aldous Huxley said. I found it to be so. And I thought marijuana would help the Beatles I couldn't imagine them writing the wonderful music they were writing already without marijuana, I just. And actually, ah, the, that, that, that day, at that meeting at the Delmonico Hotel which they were introduced to marijuana, the marijuana, their subsequent albums started reeking from the aroma, they, they more or less gave, effectuated, decrim… de facto decriminalization of marijuana so that everybody was smoking it and it seemed to be alright because whatever the Beatles did was acceptable especially for young people. And Bob and I every time they did something that, for example, there was the rumor about them smoking pot in Bucking., they smoked a joint in Buckingham Palace and when we heard that Bob gave me like a verbal wink, he was saying, we should, maybe we never should have turned them on, you know. But, you know, it, it spread, the use of marijuana, the, the Beatles were instrumental in spreading the use of marijuana among young people. And they did it, you know, much more effectively than anybody else could have done even Bob with his great, he could, Bob was, you know, Bob, I can't tell you how much Bob inspired me and inspired all the intellectuals I knew during that era. And he, to me, Bob really changed the decade, you know, and he and not only influenced the Beatles who also changed the decade but Bob was like an intellectual force and, ah, of course the Beatles, with all their albums, just like I say, came out smelling of pot. Of course today, I, I finally realized that smoke is anti-life and so I'm anti-smoke. I don't smoke anything anymore. I recently talked to George Harrison, he doesn't smoke anything anymore either and Ringo has joined AA or NA and I don't think he smokes any more. As a matter of fact I think the, most of the sixties joined AA or NA. And, ah, ... I guess that's, I can't think of anything else to say on that subject.

See when I met Bob he was 22 in 1963 he was 22 but he very quickly became, like I say, a major force among the intelligentsia of the time the young intelligentsia. And songs like "Masters Of War", I mean he just had a profound effect on everybody and I think it's an effect that, that reverberates, still reverberates in this century, in this latter part of this century, not just a decade. I think Bob was very important. Bob will remain, see, to me, when I first met Bob I quickly fell in love with his work. I mean he became, I, I felt as if I was hanging out with somebody who was like a new Shakespeare, nobody had, to me nobody had done so much to change the English language since Shakespeare. And he was, it's, all his other faults I just were, I just, didn't matter to me. I didn't see any of his faults. I mean now I reconciled myself with the fact, it's taken me 30 years to reconcile myself with the fact that just because a person is one of the greatest artists who ever lived, doesn't make him one of the nicest guys ever born. And, ah, but like I say, his effect was profound and it, it will reverberate for a long, long time to come, Dylan's effect.

What kind of effect do you think that it had on Dylan to be so influential and lionized at that age?

Well, like I say, Dylan, I've never heard Dylan give anybody a straight answer and Dylan always tries to confound the audience. It's hard to, you know I remember him saying to me, well I know I'm, nobody is doing what I'm doing better than I'm doing it. I mean he, he was aware that he was the best, that he was lionized. And, ah, and he's always, you know, been a star and acted like a star and had, you know, very temperamental, very egotistical and hard to get along with.

Back to him picking up the electric guitar, can you tell us when that was?

Well, like I said, it was after the, when he met the Beatles and that was after, ah, the, ah, Beatles benefit at the old Paramount Theatre, you can check the dates, I don't remember them. But that's when he rented the electric guitar and started working out. Soon afterwards I think he wrote, ah, I forget the name of the song, he wrote it at my house and, ah, he said he was listening to Ken, I Got A Witness the whole name, with Marvin Gaye's "Can I Get A Witness."

There was one night at my house where he, Bob stayed up all night writing a song it was, I believe it was "Mr. Tambourine Man" and he was listening to "Can I Get A Witness" over and over again all night while he was writing it. I remember in the morning I found the, his, the notes that he had, his rejects, it was on a yellow line pad and he had thrown them in the garbage. And I said, wow, I took, I took them out of the garbage and I think I still have them in my files. His original, ah, notes, his original attempt to write that song.

Did Dylan ever talk to you about The Byrds version of "Mr. Tambourine Man" do you know if he liked it or not?

Yeah, he liked it. Sure, he liked it. He liked the, he liked the exposure it was giving his work, sure, he liked having a hit up there.

I'm talking more artistically the thing is, when Dylan started doing his own electric music he went at it in a much more hard edged, gritty direction with it, I wonder if it might have been slick to him.

Well he never expressed the, he never, Bob never said that he was dissatisfied with The Byrds version of "Mr. Tambourine Man". He never expressed that to me. But Bob is the kind of guy who, he always never liked anything that everybody else liked or many different, he, he gave that impression. He was always different. You know when I first me him he was, you know, this kind of strange oracle but like I say I thought he was an important, he made, I thought he was important, I thought he was most imp., I began to think, I came to think that he was the most important man in the world and I think he thought so too.

What part did Albert Grossman play in all this?

Well Albert, Albert sort of revolutionized the music business from the business end. Albert started out owning or being partners in a folk club in Chicago, I think it was called Gate Of Horn. And, ah, well, if Albert I think Albert was the first manager to demand that, ah, that in the early days of pop or rock and roll the record company would give some kind of dumb measly contract to a performer. Like the Beatles got a stupid, you know, contract giving them very little money. And they would, also to get the contract they would have to sign away their publishing to the record company. And Albert insisted that, ah, that the, that Bob keep 50 percent of his publishing, they make a publishing company which he owned 50 percent and the publisher owned 50 percent. And that sort of revolutionized the music, the business of music business. Albert made a lot of changes in the music business. He was very important in the actually, actual business of music on the side of the, ah, performer.

Do you think that Grossman's influence had a lot to do with keeping Dylan separated from ...

Yes, Gro… Grossman had a fantastic effect, I mean Grossman had a, a strong effect on Bob, on his personality. Bob learned a lot from Albert. I remember, ah, when I was research, researching the piece I was supposed to write on Dylan, I asked Albert, how did they meet? And he said, well we were waiting for the same bus. At that time I was too much of a nerd to realize what he was saying now I realize what he, that they actually, they actually were waiting for the same bus and they got on it and they rode to success, but Albert, Albert, ah, I mean people have described Albert in different ways but to me Albert was the spitting image of Benjamin Franklin. In fact if, ah, if they, they could have had Albert on a 100 dollar bill and nobody would have thought it was phony.

Do you think that Grossman really overworked Dylan? Did you get a feeling from Dylan when he stopped touring and went off the road and went back to Woodstock.

Albert Grossman was, you know, instrumental in creating Bob Dylan. He was a king maker but, you know, I mean Albert did not over expose Bob he kept him mysterious, that was part of the hype just the same as Andrew Olden, part of Andre Olden's hype was to make the Stones appear dirty and the Rolling Stones appear dirty and loutish. That was part of the hype, that helped to make famous. Brian Epstein really didn't know what he was doing he made a lot of mistakes and cost the Beatles a lot of money. And he, you know, the Beatles actually made it despite Brian instead of because of him. That's my opinion anyway. Whereas Albert, Dylan assimilated a lot of Albert's personality which was to be mysterious and aloof. Also another influence on Dylan was Bobbie Newirth. Between Bobby and Dylan I don't know which came first, which one was the chicken, which one was the egg, they just, you know, I don't know who influenced who but, but Newirth was an important influence on Dylan and Albert was an important influence on Dylan. Dylan stayed at Albert's house when Albert had an apartment on Gramercy Square, he stayed there. When Albert moved to Woodstock he stayed there. And, ah, they were very close until they finally had some kind of break up I never, nobody really explained to me what the break up, what the reason was, what the reason for the break up was. I remember Dylan saying something to me about somebody's wife, I don't know whether it was his wife, Albert's wife or my wife.

Let’s touch on the whole idea of Dylan being overworked, Epstein overworking the Beatles.

Yeah, well Epstein booked the Beatles into gigs that they never should have been booked into like that, ah, benefit at the Paramount theater, that was a dumb gig for the Beatles to play. Albert was very cagey and he, ah, I can't remember him making any mistakes like that. He certainly never made any mistakes in, in his contracts or in the money scene the kind that Brian Epstein, I mean, you know it's like, it's because of Brian Epstein that, that Michael Jackson owns Paul and John's publishing.

Do you want to talk a little bit about the influence of Dylan in other people in rock and roll, particularly of the Stones there was a period there when not only John Lennon's song writing was reflecting what Dylan was doing but also a lot of the things that the Stones were doing in '66. I know that you were very friendly with Brian Jones.

Well Brian was a, a big Dylan fan. I introduced Brian to, Dylan too Brian with Dylan, ah, used to tease Brian, that's the word for it. I remember one scene at the Chelsea Hotel, we went out to see Brian and we got very high, I know I got very high and they were riding Brian, with, with, ah, from The Band, leader of the band, see, I can't remember his name either but.

Robby Robertson.

Robby Robertson, right, Robby and Dylan and I we went up to see Brian at the Chelsea Hotel we got very high. And Robby and Dylan were baiting Brian, they, Robby says, I mean it was saying something. There's a, there's a riot on 22nd Street and Broadway, you want to come down, you want to there Brian? And, ah, you know, all kinds of scary things until Brian waved his arm, said, ahh, something like that. And at that moment a glass ashtray broke and Dylan says, what about that Brian? How did you do that, you wave your arm and a glass ashtray broke? Well actually Robby had lit a cone incense in the glass ashtray and it burned down and cracked the ashtray. The timing was perfect, it just seemed like it was magic that Brian waves his arm in anger and a glass ashtray broke. And there were several other events like that which occurred which really spooked me out that day 'cause I was so stoned. And, ah, I mean Brian was the kind of guy who would stay up all night writing treatises on paranoia that never ended.

And Dylan and Robby were trying to increase his paranoia?

Yeah, I mean, Dylan and Robbie were trying to increase Brian's paranoia, they were working on Brian's paranoia which they, you know, succeeded in doing.

That kind of sort of digging to people went on a lot.

Well that was hipper than thou, a game of hipper than thou that Dylan always played, Dylan and Bobby Niewirth and Albert Grossman too, they were all these experts at playing hipper than thou. That that, that was what it was and that was how it was played, you just make the other person paranoid.

What was the first Dylan electric gig that you saw. Were in Newport?

I wasn't at Newport but I was at Forest Hills where people were booing him.

Say that again.

I didn't go to the Newport Festival at which Dylan went electric for the first time but I was at his Forest Hills concert which he played with Robby and I think other members of the band but that was his first electric concert in the New York area and he was getting booed at that time by the folky purists but he it was a great concert I thought.

How much of the audience reacted that way and did you think it was a knee-jerk reaction or were they genuinely appalled?

It was actually I think the folky purists, the acoustic people who wanted to keep everything acoustic, wanted Dylan to stay acoustic who were booing but they were only part of the audience the other part liked it. But you could hear the boos and you could hear the cheers too.

When did you first meet Robby and the people in the halls, was it at this time?

Yeah it was when they came down. Dylan introduced me to Robby and we soon became fast friends. Of course I can't get in touch with Robby any more, he doesn't even talk to Dylan any more but Robby learned how to write by working with Dylan, Robby never wrote songs before.

As I say, ah, Albert, ah, was a king maker. For example he was the one who put together Peter Paul and Mary, they never sang together. He got, he brought them together. He, he thought that they'd make a good trio. Albert had owned his folk club, Albert was well acquainted with the folk scene and, ah, he thought that, ah, a trio such as the Kingston Trio could make it good so he brought together Peter, Paul and Mary. He got them together in a place and had them, see if they could sing together. He had them, he had them sing - "Mary Had A Little Lamb" together. And that's how they decided they could sing together and they became, you know, a big hit. Of course they recorded "Blowing In The Wind" and that helped Dylan's career too. And they made it pretty big, Peter, Paul and Mary but nobody made it as big as Bob out of Albert's stable. Albert, Albert didn't have any inten… I don't think Albert had any idea of Dylan going electric, trying to make him go electric, I think that happened, happened by itself out of Dylan meeting the Beatles. But, ah, Albert was very important to the music scene and that's all I can think of saying about Albert right now.

A… after I had introduced Bob to the Beatles, he, he went to England on a tour and when he came back he told me about this group he had seen called The Rolling Stones and he said the liked them. He heard them I think in Hyde Park or someplace I forget where. And he said, they're a great group. Eventually I got him, I introduced him to Brian Jones who founded the Stones and like I say he had, was always riding Brian trying to make him paranoid playing hipper than thou with him when they finally got to meet Brian because Brian was, he was meat, he was ripe to be taken apart. He, he had, he was totally paranoid and got more and more so until he died.

Do you hear a big Dylan influence in the Stones' music?

Well I don't hear a big influence but I'm sure there's an influence, ah, ah, see the Stones didn't start writing until later on in their career. They started, were doing blues which was Brian was interested in. Brian had gotten them into blues, black blues in the beginning. And then they started writing the, Mick and Keith, you know obvious, everybody, all, everybody was influenced by Dylan on the music scene in those days. But I'm not, ah, an acute enough musician to point out the, ah, influences in the Stones' music. I'm not a musician at all of course.