WEBVTT FILE 00:00:14.263 --> 00:00:20.974 Announcer: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to The Advocates, the PBS Fight of the Week. 00:00:20.974 --> 00:00:33.097 Announcer: This program is made possible by grants from The Arthur Vining Davis Foundations, Lilly Endowment, Inc., the Amoco Foundation, and the Coast Community College District. 00:00:36.783 --> 00:00:40.008 Atkins: May I have your attention, please, ladies and gentlemen. 00:00:40.008 --> 00:00:46.982 Announcer: Guest moderator Thomas Atkins, Secretary of Communities and Development for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, has just called tonight's meeting to order. 00:00:46.982 --> 00:00:48.105 Atkins: Good evening. 00:00:48.105 --> 00:00:55.399 Atkins: Tonight The Advocates looks at a question which raises both civil rights and moral issues. 00:00:55.399 --> 00:01:03.975 Atkins: Specifically, our question is: Should homosexuals be permitted to marry? Advocate Franklin Kameny says yes. 00:01:03.975 --> 00:01:15.787 Kameny: Our homosexual American citizens are the last minority group in our society whose right even to have rights is frequently not recognized. 00:01:15.787 --> 00:01:35.729 Kameny: With me tonight to argue for one of those rights of considerable real and symbolic importance is Elaine Noble, a gay woman, an Instructor at Emerson College in Boston, and Dr. Richard Green of the Department of Psychiatry of U.C.L.A. 00:01:35.729 --> 00:01:39.378 Atkins: Advocate Tobias Simon says no. 00:01:39.378 --> 00:01:47.623 Simon: We are prepared to treat the homosexual relationship the same way we would treat a man's mistress. 00:01:47.623 --> 00:01:54.619 Simon: We would not punish her for adultery, but we will not legitimize her with marriage. 00:01:54.619 --> 00:02:01.448 Simon: Toleration, not encouragement, is society's maximum obligation to the homosexual. 00:02:01.448 --> 00:02:07.111 Simon: With me tonight are Professor Robin Smith and Dr. Charles Socarides. 00:02:09.230 --> 00:02:10.620 Atkins: Thank you, gentlemen. 00:02:10.620 --> 00:02:19.206 Atkins: Our program originates tonight from the Village Theater on the University of California campus at Irvine, and we're pleased to be here. 00:02:19.206 --> 00:02:23.247 Atkins: We're also pleased to welcome Franklin Kameny to The Advocates. 00:02:23.247 --> 00:02:33.349 Atkins: Dr. Kameny is an astronomer by training, a long-time gay activist, and serves on the Board of Directors of the National Gay Task Force and the Washington, D.C. 00:02:33.349 --> 00:02:36.316 Atkins: chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. 00:02:36.316 --> 00:02:38.652 Atkins: Opposing Dr. Kameny is Tobias Simon. 00:02:38.652 --> 00:02:47.428 Atkins: Mr. Simon, who makes his second appearance on The Advocates, is an experienced civil rights lawyer currently practicing in Miami, Florida. 00:02:47.428 --> 00:02:55.509 Atkins: We'll be back to both of you gentlemen shortly for your cases in a moment, but first a word of background on tonight's question. 00:02:55.509 --> 00:03:00.620 Atkins: Approximately fifteen million Americans, men and women, are homosexuals. 00:03:00.620 --> 00:03:07.900 Atkins: For much of our history, they have been a silent and powerless minority, stigmatized by law and custom. 00:03:07.900 --> 00:03:11.400 Atkins: But in the last few years this has been changing. 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:26.171 Atkins: Eight states have repealed statutes which punish the sexual conduct of homosexuals, and ten American cities have already passed laws prohibiting discrimination in housing, employment, and public accommodations. 00:03:26.171 --> 00:03:31.492 Atkins: Such bills are presently before the City Council of New York and elsewhere. 00:03:31.492 --> 00:03:53.753 Atkins: While it would be far from accurate to say that homosexuals have won the battle for equal treatment under the laws of most state and municipal jurisdictions, tonight we go to what may be the ultimate test of our society's willingness to accept homosexuals as simply another minority group in our population, marriage. 00:03:53.753 --> 00:04:09.084 Atkins: Marriage between homosexuals is already the subject of court suits in Minnesota, Kentucky and Washington, and within the past few years clergymen of several different denominations have married couples of the same sex. 00:04:09.084 --> 00:04:12.934 Atkins: However, these unions are not recognized by civil law. 00:04:12.934 --> 00:04:15.734 Atkins: That is the question we debate tonight. 00:04:15.734 --> 00:04:22.944 Atkins: Should marriage between homosexuals be permitted and recognized by law? Dr. Kameny, the floor is yours. 00:04:22.944 --> 00:04:37.849 Kameny: Our society guarantees first class citizenship to all of its citizens, the right of the pursuit of happiness to all of its citizens, and the right to be different and to be unpopular without disadvantage to all of its citizens. 00:04:37.849 --> 00:04:41.902 Kameny: Our society does not always respect those rights in practice. 00:04:41.902 --> 00:04:50.073 Kameny: Exercise by homosexual couples of the right to marry detracts not one iota from the rights of heterosexual couples to marry. 00:04:50.073 --> 00:04:58.113 Kameny: Homosexual marriages interfere with no one individually, and such marriages impair or interfere with no societal interest. 00:04:58.113 --> 00:05:01.120 Kameny: In fact, they further some societal interest. 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:06.153 Kameny: They provide a myriad of special privileges given to legally married people. 00:05:06.153 --> 00:05:11.448 Kameny: Most important, for many persons a legal marriage is psychologically supportive. 00:05:11.448 --> 00:05:13.932 Kameny: The relationship is stabilized by it. 00:05:13.932 --> 00:05:27.202 Kameny: For society to accuse us, as it does, of unstable, short-term relationships and then to deny us a powerful means of stabilization is to make their accusation self-fulfilling in a peculiarly vicious way. 00:05:27.202 --> 00:05:35.504 Kameny: To extend the definition of the family to include gay couples in no way endangers or diminishes the institution of the family. 00:05:35.504 --> 00:05:38.250 Kameny: Quite to the contrary, it strengthens it. 00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:41.910 Kameny: Our society belongs to all of its members and segments. 00:05:41.910 --> 00:05:46.748 Kameny: It is our society as homosexuals quite as much as yours as heterosexuals. 00:05:46.748 --> 00:05:56.161 Kameny: If heterosexuals wishing it have the right to the benefits of marriage, then homosexuals wishing it have the right to the benefits of marriage. 00:05:56.161 --> 00:05:59.037 Kameny: That equality is what America is all about. 00:05:59.037 --> 00:06:00.671 Kameny: It is as simple as that. 00:06:00.671 --> 00:06:02.829 Kameny: My first witness is Elaine Noble. 00:06:13.704 --> 00:06:15.673 Atkins: Welcome to The Advocates. 00:06:15.673 --> 00:06:16.841 Noble: Thank you. 00:06:16.841 --> 00:06:21.127 Kameny: Elaine Noble is an Instructor of Speech at Emerson College in Boston. 00:06:21.127 --> 00:06:28.352 Kameny: She is a member of the Daughters of Bilitis, a national lesbian organization working for the rights of lesbian women. 00:06:28.352 --> 00:06:32.087 Kameny: She is also a member of the National Organization for Women. 00:06:32.087 --> 00:06:36.863 Kameny: Ms. Noble, as a homosexual, are you content and happy with your homosexuality? 00:06:36.863 --> 00:06:38.257 Noble: Very much so. 00:06:38.257 --> 00:06:49.639 Kameny: Is it correct, then, to say that if it were somehow possible to relive your life, you would not wish to have become a heterosexual. 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:50.857 Noble: Good heavens, no. 00:06:50.857 --> 00:06:53.158 Noble: I really couldn't say that at all. 00:06:57.694 --> 00:07:02.382 Kameny: You find your homosexuality a source of satisfaction and happiness. 00:07:02.382 --> 00:07:03.245 Noble: Very much so. 00:07:03.245 --> 00:07:06.697 Noble: I don't see it as anything that degrades or takes away. 00:07:06.697 --> 00:07:10.086 Noble: I see it as a very valid and very fulfilling lifestyle. 00:07:10.086 --> 00:07:17.134 Kameny: As a homosexual, what do you see as the legal advantages of legalized homosexual marriages? 00:07:17.134 --> 00:07:25.021 Noble: I think that there are several, not to mention the joint income tax kind of thing that a couple may enjoy. 00:07:25.021 --> 00:07:37.993 Noble: There may very well be some benefits in terms of, morbid as they sound, there may be benefits in terms of a couple sharing some social security benefits after one is deceased. 00:07:37.993 --> 00:07:46.691 Noble: There are several legal kinds of options that heterosexual couples have that should be extended to homosexual couples. 00:07:46.691 --> 00:07:53.090 Kameny: Now, are there also personal advantages as well, and can you tell us what you see those to be? 00:07:53.090 --> 00:07:58.035 Noble: Well, I think that's really the question in terms of the personal advantages. 00:07:58.035 --> 00:08:24.979 Noble: I think whether your relationship be heterosexual or homosexual that there are stresses and strains in a relationship, and it seems among my colleagues who study heterosexual couples that the whole concept of marriage seems to strengthen the relationship and maintain the relationship during these periods of stress and anxiety, and if it seems to help heterosexual couples, then it should be extended to homosexual couples. 00:08:24.979 --> 00:08:31.445 Noble: I think that the real crux of the matter comes in terms of people coming out, such as in my own case. 00:08:31.445 --> 00:08:38.926 Noble: I can't very well ask my lover to come on a show like this with me because of family and sort of society's pressures. 00:08:38.926 --> 00:08:54.078 Noble: Now, if homosexual marriages were legalized, I think that both of us and many people, perhaps, in the audience tonight would be able to participate in the community in a very full and complete way, if we felt that the law was on our side. 00:08:54.078 --> 00:08:56.678 Noble: At the present time we don't feel it is. 00:08:56.678 --> 00:09:10.182 Noble: I think that in terms of shaping people's attitudes, making them change their minds and view homosexual relationships as a valid life style is probably the far more, and more valid, reaching part of that question. 00:09:10.182 --> 00:09:15.623 Kameny: It's said that homosexual relationships are notoriously unstable. 00:09:15.623 --> 00:09:16.695 Kameny: Is this true? 00:09:16.695 --> 00:09:27.977 Noble: Well, given the fact that I think the current heterosexual divorce rate is up to 40%, I think maybe the stereotype is perhaps misplaced. 00:09:27.977 --> 00:09:58.697 Noble: And given the fact of many of the homosexual couples, lesbian couples, that I know of that have long-lasting relationships for ten or twenty years without societal sanctions, I think that that is probably the more apparent and the more valid and strong reason for realizing that homosexual relationships can be as fulfilling and as nurturing as heterosexual relationships. 00:09:58.697 --> 00:09:59.602 Noble: Absolutely. 00:09:59.602 --> 00:10:05.263 Atkins: Miss Noble, I'm going to have to interrupt right now to say that it's time for us to recognize Mr. Simon. 00:10:05.263 --> 00:10:06.384 Atkins: Thank you very much. 00:10:06.384 --> 00:10:07.025 Atkins: Dr. Kameny. 00:10:07.025 --> 00:10:08.307 Atkins: Mr. Simon, your witness. 00:10:11.514 --> 00:10:22.475 Simon: Miss Noble, if indeed you are so content and happy with your romance, aren't you a little bit afraid of taking a chance on ruining it by getting married? 00:10:22.475 --> 00:10:27.283 Noble: Mr. Simon, are you speaking for me or for yourself, sir? 00:10:27.283 --> 00:10:29.220 Simon: I'm asking you ... 00:10:29.220 --> 00:10:53.493 Simon: I'm asking you quite simply if you feel that the marriage relationship has such a stabilizing effect, how can you point to the 40% divorce rate in the heterosexual marriage and then say that it will help the homosexual become more stable? 00:10:53.493 --> 00:10:55.810 Noble: Well, you see, that's a very good question. 00:10:55.810 --> 00:11:06.451 Noble: I think what we have to do is then define what we call marriage, and what I call marriage is having a very…the essence to me of marriage is having a very loving, supporting, and nurturing relationship. 00:11:06.451 --> 00:11:15.880 Noble: And perhaps heterosexuals, in terms of that divorce rate, it seems to me that from what I've read, the 40% who do get divorced again remarried, and those marriages seemed stable. 00:11:15.880 --> 00:11:18.724 Noble: But I'm defining marriage perhaps in a different way. 00:11:18.724 --> 00:11:22.411 Noble: It might be interesting to share your definition of marriage with us. 00:11:22.411 --> 00:11:24.360 Noble: Perhaps we're viewing it differently. 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:35.353 Simon: Well, I wanted to ask you some questions about the incidence of marriage because it seems to me that marriage is designed primarily for the heterosexual couple and is inappropriate for the homosexual couple. 00:11:35.353 --> 00:11:40.004 Simon: I would like to ask you whether you plan to modify or change the marriage relationship. 00:11:40.004 --> 00:11:44.760 Simon: For example, in the homosexual marriage, will there be an identifiable head of the family? 00:11:44.760 --> 00:11:50.953 Noble: Well, I think that's probably ... 00:11:50.953 --> 00:12:01.700 Noble: I think that's sort of a dated question, don't you think . 00:12:01.700 --> 00:12:02.064 Noble: . 00:12:02.064 --> 00:12:02.428 Noble: . 00:12:02.428 --> 00:12:04.614 Noble: I assumed . 00:12:04.614 --> 00:12:04.978 Noble: . 00:12:04.978 --> 00:12:05.161 Noble: . 00:12:05.160 --> 00:12:07.564 Simon: I take it that you don't want to answer my question . 00:12:07.564 --> 00:12:07.653 Simon: . 00:12:07.653 --> 00:12:07.697 Simon: . 00:12:07.697 --> 00:12:08.633 Noble: Oh, but I do. 00:12:08.633 --> 00:12:09.721 Simon: You're merely sparring with me. 00:12:09.721 --> 00:12:11.467 Noble: I would really love to answer your question. 00:12:11.467 --> 00:12:11.505 Noble: . 00:12:11.505 --> 00:12:11.886 Simon: Well . 00:12:11.886 --> 00:12:11.994 Simon: . 00:12:11.994 --> 00:12:12.048 Simon: . 00:12:12.048 --> 00:12:12.153 Noble: . 00:12:12.153 --> 00:12:12.258 Noble: . 00:12:12.258 --> 00:12:12.362 Noble: . 00:12:12.362 --> 00:12:13.775 Noble: but I think that maybe ... 00:12:13.775 --> 00:12:23.036 Noble: I thought we started on a higher level, and I assumed that heterosexual marriages were ones that we're questioning— you know, that both partners are equal in that relationship. 00:12:23.036 --> 00:12:25.390 Noble: Perhaps you don't perceive marriage that way. 00:12:25.390 --> 00:12:32.326 Simon: Well, are you telling me, then, that there will not be an identifiable head and that both parties to the homosexual marriage will always be equal? 00:12:32.326 --> 00:12:37.351 Noble: I would assume that that's probably what the women's movement is trying to say about heterosexual marriages. 00:12:37.351 --> 00:12:37.812 Simon: All right. 00:12:37.812 --> 00:12:41.663 Simon: Will you tell me, please: will there be a change of name when there's a homosexual marriage? 00:12:41.663 --> 00:12:47.990 Noble: Probably depending upon whoever wants to change their name or what you want to pick. 00:12:47.990 --> 00:12:55.143 Simon: Will you tell me, please, whether the partners to the homosexual marriage will accept the responsibility of fidelity throughout their entire lifetime? 00:12:55.143 --> 00:12:59.211 Noble: Do you . 00:12:59.211 --> 00:13:00.115 Noble: . 00:13:00.115 --> 00:13:00.567 Noble: . 00:13:00.567 --> 00:13:01.510 Simon: Or don't you regard that as important? 00:13:01.510 --> 00:13:08.032 Noble: Well, I think that probably the better question is do heterosexuals regard that as a mainstay in relationships? 00:13:08.032 --> 00:13:14.318 Simon: Will you place that—will you place the homosexual obligation on the same par as the heterosexual obligation? 00:13:14.318 --> 00:13:36.326 Noble: I think really the crux of that is that I don't think that relationships or intimacies, that the closeness at the core of two people relating to each other, will really go out of style, Mr. Simon, and I really think that most people get a very deep sense of feeling and warmth in a relationship, and a feeling of wanting to go on and survive in this world by having a relationship with someone else. 00:13:36.326 --> 00:13:40.168 Simon: Well, do you contemplate the possibility of divorce within the homosexual union? 00:13:40.168 --> 00:13:45.383 Noble: Gee, at this point I'm just thinking about, you know, the marital first part . 00:13:45.383 --> 00:13:45.515 Noble: . 00:13:45.515 --> 00:13:45.581 Noble: . 00:13:45.581 --> 00:13:46.165 Simon: I see. 00:13:46.165 --> 00:13:48.687 Noble: I really hadn't gotten that, sort of, dismal point of view across. 00:13:48.687 --> 00:14:01.004 Simon: Well, dismal or otherwise, you are attempting to change the legal relationships that exist in our society, and if you want to act responsibly, I think you should direct yourself to the legal issues. 00:14:01.004 --> 00:14:09.917 Simon: Will you accede to the proposition that a homosexual couple, once married, can't separate without permission from the court, through a divorce. 00:14:09.917 --> 00:14:11.341 Simon: Will you agree to that? 00:14:11.341 --> 00:14:15.178 Noble: It would probably depend upon the court and the judge, I would think. 00:14:15.178 --> 00:14:17.591 Noble: That would vary in terms of state to state. 00:14:17.591 --> 00:14:29.763 Noble: I think that's a valid kind of response to have because a lot of people, in terms of heterosexual marriages, judge whether they'll stay together or separate depending upon the state or the judges or the laws of that state. 00:14:29.763 --> 00:14:34.474 Simon: The heterosexual couple really can't get separated without permission from the state. 00:14:34.474 --> 00:14:38.746 Simon: Are you prepared to assume that responsibility and that obligation to society? 00:14:38.746 --> 00:14:39.962 Atkins: A very short answer, please. 00:14:39.962 --> 00:14:42.626 Noble: I think so, yes. 00:14:42.626 --> 00:14:48.457 Simon: And what would be the grounds for divorce in a homosexual marriage? 00:14:48.457 --> 00:14:51.457 Atkins: I'm afraid we're not going to have time for an answer to that question. 00:14:51.457 --> 00:14:52.874 Atkins: I'm going to return to Dr. Kameny. 00:14:52.874 --> 00:15:02.114 Kameny: Ms. Noble, what would you say to reassure parents who might be concerned that their children might end up in a homosexual marriage? 00:15:02.114 --> 00:15:27.673 Noble: I think probably what I would say to parents is that I would think that any parent who cares about their children would be more concerned about their children being in a loving and caring relationship, rather than what that sexual preference is of that person, that they would be more concerned with is their child, or their adult child, being loved, and are they caring and capable of a mature relationship. 00:15:27.673 --> 00:15:29.272 Atkins: Mr. Simon, one more question. 00:15:29.272 --> 00:15:42.879 Simon: Do you advocate the encouragement of homosexuality as a superior, or at least an equal, alternative to the male-female relationship, and if you ever had or adopted a child, which way would you prefer she turn out, or he? 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:50.476 Noble: Well, you know, since I might be a little biased in my prejudice, but I'll try to answer that as logically as I see possible. 00:15:50.476 --> 00:15:57.409 Noble: I think in terms of my adopting a child, I would want my child to turn out in the way that is best for that child. 00:15:57.409 --> 00:16:06.634 Noble: I don't think—what is behind that question is saying, if two women who are lesbians have a child and raise the child, will she turn out to be a lesbian. 00:16:06.634 --> 00:16:15.677 Noble: I think since the whole world is based on a heterosexual norm that we would have to work awfully, awfully hard to turn that child out to be a lesbian. 00:16:15.677 --> 00:16:16.153 Simon: I think you have . 00:16:16.153 --> 00:16:16.203 Simon: . 00:16:16.203 --> 00:16:16.229 Simon: . 00:16:16.229 --> 00:16:31.948 Atkins: Miss Noble, I'm going to have to thank you very much for being with us and ask our advocates to recognize that it's time for us to move forward. 00:16:31.948 --> 00:16:36.067 Atkins: Thank you for being on The Advocates. 00:16:36.067 --> 00:16:40.186 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, your next witness, please. 00:16:40.187 --> 00:16:47.153 Kameny: My second witness is Dr. Richard Green. 00:16:54.618 --> 00:16:55.897 Atkins: Welcome to The Advocates, Dr. Green. 00:16:58.946 --> 00:17:03.123 Kameny: Dr. Green is Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the U.C.L.A. 00:17:03.123 --> 00:17:04.449 Kameny: School of Medicine. 00:17:04.449 --> 00:17:08.428 Kameny: He has studied and written extensively about homosexuality. 00:17:08.428 --> 00:17:17.845 Kameny: Dr. Green, many people still consider homosexuality a sickness or disturbance, an arrest of development, a sign of instability or immaturity. 00:17:17.845 --> 00:17:20.165 Kameny: Do you consider this to be correct? 00:17:20.165 --> 00:17:21.455 Green: No, sir, I do not. 00:17:21.455 --> 00:17:36.655 Green: I would say that that is an outmoded, outdated bias based on a lack of scientific information, based on a biased kind of clinical experience that most of us who are psychiatrists have had and have written about in the past. 00:17:36.655 --> 00:17:49.480 Green: Most of us have seen people troubled by their sexuality, whether they be heterosexuals or homosexuals, and have generalized from that to the entire population of people that we do not see. 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:54.230 Green: This has been dramatically changed during the last five to six years. 00:17:54.230 --> 00:18:25.783 Green: Without going into detail about the studies, I can say that there have been at least three studies, including over 1,000 persons, male and female, heterosexual and homosexual, who were not patients, who have been studied by psychiatrists and psychologists on a variety of interview and testing procedures, and what emerges from those studies is that there is no difference on any of the dimensions of mental health, be they heterosexual or homosexual non-patients. 00:18:25.783 --> 00:18:44.647 Green: This has been translated into recent action by the American Psychiatric Association, which by unanimous vote of the Board of Trustees and by popular referendum of the general membership has deleted homosexuality per se as a mental illness from the list of psychiatric disorders. 00:18:48.352 --> 00:18:53.031 Kameny: The question of homosexuality as a disease or illness is then firmly closed. 00:18:53.031 --> 00:18:55.784 Green: I believe it is, based on scientific data. 00:18:55.784 --> 00:18:56.584 Kameny: Thank you. 00:18:56.584 --> 00:19:01.680 Kameny: Now, how would legal marriage affect the mental health of homosexuals? 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:30.095 Green: I'd say that the greatest single event and the greatest single signal that we have as adults is our ability to share with another human being, to commit ourselves to an enduring, loving relationship, that in our society marriage is that social signal which says to the world that we have reached that level of maturation that we can go through life in a meaningful, enduring, interpersonal relationship. 00:19:30.095 --> 00:19:57.103 Green: Those of us who formerly, and some of us still currently, who look upon the instability of homosexual relationships and at the same time deny them homosexual people, male and female, the same kinds of social support systems that heterosexuals do are essentially using a circular kind of logic, that the capacity for maturation and growth in our society is best signified by marriage. 00:19:57.103 --> 00:20:09.974 Green: And until there is another such indicator, to deny the homosexual the right to marry is unfair to the homosexual, does not permit that person the same opportunities for mental growth. 00:20:09.974 --> 00:20:10.571 Kameny: Thank you. 00:20:10.571 --> 00:20:12.575 Kameny: We have to move on somewhat quickly. 00:20:12.575 --> 00:20:16.748 Kameny: Sizeable numbers of young people, teenagers and adolescents, are homosexual. 00:20:16.748 --> 00:20:20.269 Kameny: How would legalization of homosexual marriages help these people? 00:20:20.269 --> 00:20:28.779 Green: Most adolescents when they discover their homosexuality during early adolescence are shocked and terrified because they have no one to turn to. 00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:33.152 Green: They feel stigmatized and alienated in an alienated heterosexual society. 00:20:33.152 --> 00:20:42.430 Green: They can't turn to their parents, they can't turn to their peer group, regrettably, they frequently can't turn to the medical or helping professions either. 00:20:42.430 --> 00:21:06.480 Green: If there were available for these teenagers, who find themselves homosexually oriented, if there were available for them in the culture viable models where they can find the same kinds of potential happiness, where they can follow the same routes as the majority people search for happiness, then their mental health is going to be enhanced, their anxiety, alienation, and depression is going to be reduced. 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:11.641 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, it's time to now allow Mr. Simon a chance to speak with your witness. 00:21:11.641 --> 00:21:12.461 Simon: Thank you. 00:21:12.461 --> 00:21:21.865 Simon: You are advocating the extension of marriage from the male-female relationship to the same sex relationship, are you not, sir? 00:21:21.865 --> 00:21:24.881 Green: For those who wish it, just as for males and females who also wish it. 00:21:24.881 --> 00:21:29.424 Simon: You're not insisting that homosexuals marry; you're giving them the opportunity to marry should they so desire. 00:21:29.424 --> 00:21:30.519 Green: The same opportunity. 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.697 Simon: It represents an extension of the concept, does it not? 00:21:33.697 --> 00:21:37.065 Green: The concept of freedom to choose if one wishes to marry. 00:21:37.065 --> 00:21:43.512 Simon: Now, would you be willing—or do you insist— that homosexual marriages be limited to two persons, and if so, why? 00:21:43.512 --> 00:21:59.328 Green: The present time based—and I would like to remind you that I am a scientist, I'm a clinician—that based on the available scientific data we have, we know an awful lot about marital styles, we know an awful lot about one-to-one personal relationships. 00:21:59.328 --> 00:22:10.544 Green: There is a growing body of interest and practice of group sexuality in this country and experiments with various kinds of atypical marriages, extended families, communal living. 00:22:10.544 --> 00:22:20.563 Green: I would say at this point, as we gather scientific evidence, we know very little about those who involve themselves in group sexuality and in communal living. 00:22:20.563 --> 00:22:25.855 Green: Until we have those data, as a scientist I would not say we know enough to say yes. 00:22:25.855 --> 00:22:38.898 Green: By contrast, we know enough about homosexuals to say yes, they ought to be able to marry, we ought to, as scientists, reserve judgment until we have more information about other kinds of living arrangements. 00:22:38.898 --> 00:22:46.851 Simon: But aren't all of your arguments for the extension of marriage to homosexual couples equally applicable to the extension of marriage to three or more persons? 00:22:46.851 --> 00:22:48.306 Green: I just answered you, no. 00:22:48.306 --> 00:22:50.985 Green: We have data in one field and not in another. 00:22:50.985 --> 00:22:52.500 Green: That is not comparability. 00:22:52.500 --> 00:23:02.395 Simon: Would you, please, tell us whether you regard homosexuality as something one is born with, or is it in whole or in part a product of environmental influences. 00:23:02.395 --> 00:23:05.278 Green: It is to a considerable degree still unknown. 00:23:05.278 --> 00:23:14.114 Green: What we do know is whatever the determinants are, they seem to be consolidated by the pre-school and certainly the early grade school years. 00:23:14.114 --> 00:23:17.624 Green: There's evidence for a degree of pre-natal disposition. 00:23:17.624 --> 00:23:26.711 Green: There's other evidence for early socialization influences, but by and large the ballgame seems to be over by the start of the grade school years. 00:23:26.711 --> 00:23:34.823 Simon: So then I think your answer is, if I can pierce through it, sir, that in part environmental influences do play a role. 00:23:34.823 --> 00:23:36.086 Green: Apparently so. 00:23:36.086 --> 00:23:44.520 Simon: Doesn't society, then, have a duty to encourage the heterosexual potential of our youth, and wouldn't you, as a counselor . 00:23:44.520 --> 00:23:44.656 Simon: . 00:23:44.656 --> 00:23:44.792 Simon: . 00:23:44.792 --> 00:23:47.241 Simon: Please allow the witness to answer. 00:23:47.241 --> 00:23:56.490 Simon: Wouldn't you, as a counselor, if given the opportunity, help a patient to realize his heterosexual rather than his homosexual potential? 00:23:56.490 --> 00:24:03.187 Green: I think the society's major commitment ought to be for the most self-actualization of any individual. 00:24:03.187 --> 00:24:09.161 Green: There are happy heterosexuals, there are unhappy ones, happy homosexuals and unhappy ones. 00:24:09.161 --> 00:24:30.431 Green: I don't believe that science or psychiatry should masquerade and come through to individuals in a moral, judgmental, or religious way, that I think our primary responsibility is to those who consult us, and that so long as they are not harming other people, that it is their wishes and is their lifestyle that is important. 00:24:30.431 --> 00:24:36.340 Green: Toward that end, our responsibility as a helping professional is to make that way easier. 00:24:36.340 --> 00:24:39.556 Green: We are not here to dictate the morals of anyone. 00:24:39.556 --> 00:24:46.646 Green: We are here to help people find the happiness that they deserve no matter what their sexual preferences are. 00:24:46.646 --> 00:24:54.104 Simon: And if you found someone, then, on dead center, you are indicating to us by your lack of an answer that you wouldn't help him one way or the other. 00:24:54.104 --> 00:24:57.255 Green: I would help that individual find… 00:24:57.255 --> 00:24:57.719 Simon: Which way? 00:24:57.719 --> 00:24:58.728 Green: …find himself or herself. 00:24:58.728 --> 00:25:00.471 Simon: Which way, if he needed the help? 00:25:00.471 --> 00:25:02.638 Green: That would depend on the individual. 00:25:02.638 --> 00:25:11.192 Green: The individual ought to maximize his social options and find out where, he or she basically fits for the most happiness that he or she will find. 00:25:11.192 --> 00:25:14.414 Green: That's all any of us as human beings can ever hope for. 00:25:14.414 --> 00:25:39.836 Simon: Isn't it a fact that the concept of a legal marriage for the homosexual is nothing more than an excuse to secure for that individual certain tax and property advantages and to eliminate sexual discrimination, and if these could be provided in a more direct and a way which didn't affront the rest of our society, wouldn't you prefer that? 00:25:39.836 --> 00:25:42.164 Atkins: I'm going to have to have a very short answer. 00:25:42.164 --> 00:25:46.994 Green: I have more respect for marriage than merely as a tax shelter. 00:25:46.994 --> 00:25:50.673 Green: I don't think it's like drilling for oil wells. 00:25:50.673 --> 00:25:58.492 Green: I think that people marry for meaningful, lasting, interpersonal relationships, not to save tax money. 00:25:58.492 --> 00:25:59.204 Simon: Thank you. 00:25:59.204 --> 00:26:01.033 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, your witness. 00:26:01.033 --> 00:26:02.299 Atkins: One more question. 00:26:02.299 --> 00:26:14.966 Kameny: Dr. Green, we hear much in this context about youngsters, teenagers, adolescents, who are supposedly on the fence between homosexuality and heterosexuality. 00:26:14.966 --> 00:26:19.000 Kameny: Could you address yourself to that matter, please? 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:28.412 Green: Well, first of all, I don't believe that most people when they discover their sexuality, be it just pre-adolescent or early adolescent, really are on the fence. 00:26:28.412 --> 00:26:58.405 Green: If, in fact, there is a sub-group of adolescents who are on the fence, so to speak, with respect to heterosexuality or homosexuality, I think that for their mental health they ought to be able to see available to them good viable options which way they go, and that if they do, in fact, decide to choose heterosexuality, that they ought to choose that because of a positive attraction for heterosexuality, not because the society has labeled the alternate model as being sinful, criminal, or mentally disordered. 00:26:58.405 --> 00:27:03.667 Green: That is not the route to mental health, nor should it be the route to heterosexual health. 00:27:03.666 --> 00:27:05.234 Atkins: One more question, Mr. Simon. 00:27:05.234 --> 00:27:21.451 Simon: Since homosexual marriages will not produce children, should homosexual marriages be subject to the laws against incest? In other words, why can't homosexual brothers marry? Or fathers and sons? Or mothers and daughters? 00:27:21.451 --> 00:27:23.973 Atkins: I'm not sure which question you're asking the witness . 00:27:23.973 --> 00:27:24.063 Atkins: . 00:27:24.063 --> 00:27:24.153 Atkins: . 00:27:24.153 --> 00:27:26.090 Atkins: take his choice as to which one he answers. 00:27:26.090 --> 00:27:31.586 Simon: Are homosexual marriages subject to the laws against incest, and if so, why? 00:27:31.586 --> 00:27:43.375 Green: Incest—you know, you're mixing apples and pears —incest is a, and can be frequently, heterosexually or homosexually, sexual victimization that has nothing to do with a marital issue. 00:27:43.375 --> 00:27:53.875 Green: And if you're concerned about reproduction in marriage and that being a vital issue, then why not limit marriage only to those heterosexuals who wish to reproduce? 00:27:53.875 --> 00:27:55.530 Simon: Thank you very much. 00:28:10.239 --> 00:28:13.590 Atkins: Dr. Kameny. 00:28:13.590 --> 00:28:22.356 Kameny: The United States Supreme Court has said that the right to marry is one of the basic civil rights of man. 00:28:22.356 --> 00:28:27.234 Kameny: Civil rights, by their very nature, apply to all citizens. 00:28:27.234 --> 00:28:36.330 Kameny: When we set up classes of citizens merely to be tolerated, we get unions of South Africa and American racism. 00:28:36.330 --> 00:28:42.284 Kameny: Therefore we cannot properly be offered mere toleration by our society. 00:28:42.284 --> 00:28:49.395 Kameny: The issue is our participation in our society on a basis of full and precise equality. 00:28:49.395 --> 00:28:51.270 Atkins: Thank you, Dr. Kameny. 00:28:51.270 --> 00:29:05.775 Atkins: For those of you in our audience who may have joined us late, Dr. Kameny and his witnesses have just presented the case in favor of marriage between homosexuals being permitted. 00:29:05.775 --> 00:29:10.664 Atkins: And now for the case against, Mr. Simon, the floor is yours. 00:29:10.664 --> 00:29:11.501 Simon: Thank you. 00:29:11.501 --> 00:29:16.518 Simon: Marriage, as the human race has known it for eons, is two things. 00:29:16.518 --> 00:29:27.769 Simon: First it is the personal commitment between two persons, and second it is the recognition and status given to this relationship by law and society. 00:29:27.769 --> 00:29:40.236 Simon: We recognize and we reward marriage precisely because it is the heterosexual family that produces and conditions the children that preserve and propagate the race. 00:29:40.236 --> 00:29:48.370 Simon: The law must encourage and protect the heterosexual marriage and elevate it above all other relationships. 00:29:48.370 --> 00:29:55.516 Simon: We do not deny the homosexual the right to any personal commitment he or she desires to make. 00:29:55.516 --> 00:30:03.270 Simon: We would abolish most laws prohibiting sexual conduct between and among consenting adults in private. 00:30:03.270 --> 00:30:11.556 Simon: We would permit homosexuals to live together in peace, but the law cannot recognize or legalize such unions. 00:30:11.556 --> 00:30:15.890 Simon: This is not discrimination or violation of civil rights. 00:30:15.890 --> 00:30:24.404 Simon: It is a matter of according the greatest deference to, and only to, the institution of the greatest importance. 00:30:24.404 --> 00:30:39.000 Simon: Relationships which debase, mimic, or threaten it, such as homosexual marriage, must not be permitted, since this will pose grave threats to the family unit which is so vital to our survival. 00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:42.725 Simon: I call as my first witness Professor Robin Smith. 00:30:46.197 --> 00:30:49.692 Atkins: Welcome to The Advocates, Dr. Smith. 00:30:49.692 --> 00:30:55.492 Simon: Robin Smith is the Assistant Professor of Philosophy at Occidental College. 00:30:55.492 --> 00:30:56.561 Simon: Good evening. 00:30:56.561 --> 00:31:04.805 Simon: Professor Smith, what is the heterosexual family? Please describe it in terms of its functions and purposes. 00:31:04.805 --> 00:31:13.879 Smith: Well, as I see it, the heterosexual family is the fundamental institution by which society insures the propagation and survival of the race, the human race. 00:31:13.879 --> 00:31:26.884 Smith: Not only does this involve the procreation of children, this also involves their nurture and training, and there seems to be a great deal of evidence that part of that training includes learning what sexual object to choose. 00:31:26.884 --> 00:31:29.947 Smith: Sexual behavior is not innate; it has to be learned. 00:31:29.947 --> 00:31:38.617 Smith: With other animals there seems to be plenty of evidence that the sexual object of a chicken or a duck, pigs, depends on what it learns in early life. 00:31:38.617 --> 00:31:55.322 Smith: Consequently, human beings, although much more complicated, still make their sexual choices on the basis of what they've been brought up like, and the heterosexual family insures that children will, at least in large part, grow up to reproduce themselves and raise their children properly. 00:31:55.322 --> 00:32:05.288 Simon: Well, would you tell us, then, please, what duty does the law have to protect and encourage this unique institution, the heterosexual family? 00:32:05.288 --> 00:32:20.746 Smith: Well, since the fundamental duty of the law and of society is to the survival of the race, the law must institute whatever sanctions, rewards, and special treatments are necessary to encourage people to enter into heterosexual unions and raise families. 00:32:20.746 --> 00:32:36.289 Simon: Is the heterosexual family the only relationship that society can tolerate, or can it, outside of traditional marriage, permit other relationships, including the homosexual relationship? 00:32:36.289 --> 00:32:48.924 Smith: Well, on the basis of what I've said, the only kind of rationale that there could be for prohibiting a certain kind of sexual relationship would be that it was inimical or hazardous to the heterosexual family as an institution. 00:32:48.924 --> 00:32:53.856 Smith: For instance, bigamy seems to be a very clear case of something that can't be tolerated. 00:32:53.856 --> 00:32:59.840 Smith: But there seems to be no reason on the basis of what I've said for prohibiting the homosexual relationship. 00:32:59.840 --> 00:33:05.548 Smith: There seems to be no reason to suppose that it's inimical to the interests of the heterosexual family. 00:33:05.548 --> 00:33:15.577 Smith: Consequently, I would advocate the abolition of all laws having anything to do with homosexual conduct, but that's a very different thing from homosexual marriage as an institution. 00:33:15.577 --> 00:33:25.417 Simon: What effects would flow if marriage concepts were to be extended to and engrafted full-blown on the homosexual relationship? 00:33:25.417 --> 00:33:31.196 Smith: Well, society, in effect, pays the heterosexual couple a bounty for establishing a family. 00:33:31.196 --> 00:33:36.402 Smith: There's a reward paid for a certain service rendered to the survival of the race. 00:33:36.402 --> 00:33:50.625 Smith: Now, if you were to simply rewrite marriage laws so that they no longer took account of the sex of the people involved, you would be paying that same reward to the homosexual couple while they don't render the same service. 00:33:50.625 --> 00:33:52.530 Smith: The merit isn't earned there. 00:33:52.530 --> 00:34:03.641 Smith: Moreover, you would be elevating them to the level of a paradigm to be emulated, a certain kind of relationship which is not particularly valuable to the survival of society. 00:34:03.641 --> 00:34:13.800 Smith: You want to elevate marriage to that position because you want it to be emulated, but homosexual marriage has no particular reason for being emulated like that. 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:24.103 Simon: Well, would this be discrimination? Is this a denial of civil rights? Is the homosexual the new Negro? 00:34:24.103 --> 00:34:27.317 Smith: It seems to me this doesn't count as discrimination. 00:34:27.317 --> 00:34:33.745 Smith: We're not discriminating, and in fact I would advocate the following kind of abolition of discrimination. 00:34:33.745 --> 00:34:39.931 Smith: We should allow all people, homosexual, heterosexual or otherwise, free rights of sexual association. 00:34:39.931 --> 00:34:45.873 Smith: If people want to form any kind of unions with each other for however long they choose, they may. 00:34:45.873 --> 00:34:50.603 Smith: They also may remain solitary; they can be bachelors or hermits if they want. 00:34:50.603 --> 00:35:02.550 Smith: The only thing that I am saying is that we are not going to pay people a bounty for entering into homosexual relationships,' as we do pay them a bounty for entering into heterosexual relationships. 00:35:02.550 --> 00:35:04.803 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, I'm going to give you a chance to get at this witness. 00:35:04.803 --> 00:35:05.846 Atkins: Thank you very much, Mr. Simon. 00:35:08.269 --> 00:35:08.963 Kameny: Thank you. 00:35:08.963 --> 00:35:19.871 Kameny: Dr. Smith, you base a great deal of your rationale for marriage—you put it in terms of a special bounty and the like, as some sort of a payment for the raising of children. 00:35:19.871 --> 00:35:36.076 Kameny: Are you then going to propose instituting a kind of a second class heterosexual marriage for heterosexual couples marrying beyond the child-bearing age, who voluntarily choose not to have children, or otherwise don't enter into the whole child-bearing game? 00:35:36.076 --> 00:35:41.541 Smith: Well, it seems to me that there's a certain bounty when having a minimum of institutions. 00:35:41.541 --> 00:35:56.053 Smith: Now, in this case you'd have to have some means of discriminating between couples who can and can't or couples who ever might and never will have children, and it doesn't seem to me that the law is competent to make that kind of judgment. 00:35:56.053 --> 00:36:03.826 Smith: Furthermore, we have historically behind us centuries of the use of heterosexual marriage, as we know the institution nowadays. 00:36:03.826 --> 00:36:10.688 Smith: I don't think we should tamper with that institution until we know a little bit more about possible side effects. 00:36:10.688 --> 00:36:23.143 Kameny: Do you seriously expect mass defections from heterosexual marriages if homosexuals are allowed to marry? Is heterosexuality really so unattractive? 00:36:23.143 --> 00:36:28.729 Smith: It seems to me that to find out the answer to that we'd have to conduct an experiment. 00:36:28.729 --> 00:36:37.459 Smith: We'd have to say, "All right, let's introduce the institution." Now, suppose that as a matter of fact it doesn't have much consequence. 00:36:37.459 --> 00:36:46.896 Smith: We find out that we were wrong and we could have tolerated them all along, and the benefits to society are, while significant, still not enormous. 00:36:46.896 --> 00:36:49.143 Smith: Suppose, however, that I am right. 00:36:49.143 --> 00:36:56.333 Smith: Suppose that there is a deleterious effect on the survival of the race and perhaps irreversible damage results. 00:36:56.333 --> 00:37:01.469 Smith: Then we, you know, we found out we were wrong and we can't do anything about it. 00:37:01.469 --> 00:37:10.659 Kameny: if there are such mass defections from heterosexuality, don't you think you had better start re-examining the whole value system, then, which elevates heterosexuality above homosexuality? 00:37:10.659 --> 00:37:12.988 Smith: Well, it seems to me that I don't have to examine one thing. 00:37:12.988 --> 00:37:18.525 Smith: If there is no heterosexuality, there is not going to be any reproduction, and the survival of the race is a value that I'm not going to discuss. 00:37:18.525 --> 00:37:19.881 Kameny: Now really. 00:37:19.881 --> 00:37:21.124 Kameny: Dr. Smith. 00:37:21.124 --> 00:37:41.585 Kameny: With half of Africa and Asia starving and the rest of us plagued by pollution and energy crises, are you seriously concerned with the survival of the race through under propagation? 00:37:49.623 --> 00:37:51.097 Atkins: Let the witness answer, please. 00:37:51.097 --> 00:37:51.512 Atkins: Go ahead. 00:37:51.512 --> 00:37:59.975 Smith: The point that needs to be made here is that silly as it may sound, if right now nobody bore any more children forever, the human race would die out. 00:37:59.975 --> 00:38:11.202 Smith: It seems to me we shouldn't saddle ourselves with—who knows what kind of famine, pestilence or war may come in the future—we shouldn't saddle ourselves with not being able to do anything about that. 00:38:11.202 --> 00:38:15.998 Smith: And moreover, there are easier ways—there are easy ways to control population than . 00:38:15.998 --> 00:38:16.111 Smith: . 00:38:16.111 --> 00:38:16.168 Smith: . 00:38:16.168 --> 00:38:21.945 Kameny: Nevertheless, overpopulation is here; under-population is not here. 00:38:21.945 --> 00:38:32.905 Kameny: Are you really seriously concerned that homosexual marriages might actually put us over some marginal line into under population? 00:38:32.905 --> 00:38:35.529 Smith: Once again, I am talking about an institution. 00:38:35.529 --> 00:38:38.488 Smith: I am not talking about practical measures right now. 00:38:38.488 --> 00:38:44.350 Smith: I'm talking about setting up an institution to remain as a fixed feature of society, let's say, forever. 00:38:44.350 --> 00:38:51.720 Smith: If you do something like that, when you put up an institution, you are not concerned with whether or not it is important right now. 00:38:51.720 --> 00:38:57.749 Smith: There is no reason to elevate the homosexual union, as there is a reason to elevate the heterosexual union. 00:38:57.749 --> 00:39:03.668 Smith: I'm willing to let homosexuals have all rights of association, all kinds of property rights, as I've said. 00:39:03.668 --> 00:39:04.373 Kameny: How kind of you. 00:39:04.373 --> 00:39:05.782 Atkins: We have time for one more question. 00:39:05.782 --> 00:39:06.252 Atkins: Dr. Kameny. 00:39:06.252 --> 00:39:07.349 Atkins: With a short answer, please. 00:39:07.349 --> 00:39:11.315 Kameny: All homosexuals come from heterosexual families, do they not? 00:39:11.315 --> 00:39:12.603 Smith: I assume so. 00:39:12.603 --> 00:39:22.940 Kameny: And are you going to assume that homosexual families are going to produce homosexuals necessarily and not heterosexuals? 00:39:22.940 --> 00:39:28.880 Smith: Well, it seems to me that statistically more heterosexuals than homosexuals come from heterosexual families. 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:36.563 Smith: That's as good a reason as what you've just suggested for saying that more homosexuals than heterosexuals will come from homosexual families. 00:39:36.563 --> 00:39:38.581 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, one more question from Mr. Simon. 00:39:38.581 --> 00:39:51.715 Simon: What limitations are you suggesting that we make with regard to the property and sexual privileges that we are prepared to give to homosexuals? 00:39:51.715 --> 00:39:52.545 Smith: Scarcely any. 00:39:52.545 --> 00:40:07.003 Smith: The only kind of thing that I can see is that those areas of the law which seem to be deliberately designed at giving heterosexual couples a certain kind of bounty—for example, a separate income tax rate—it seems to me that could be preserved. 00:40:07.003 --> 00:40:18.262 Smith: But we could very well accord to homosexual couples the unmarried head of household tax rate, for example, because of the fact that they're undertaking the burden of supporting one another. 00:40:18.262 --> 00:40:22.825 Smith: Aside from that, I can't think of any particular reason for according them . 00:40:22.825 --> 00:40:22.943 Smith: . 00:40:22.943 --> 00:40:23.003 Smith: . 00:40:23.003 --> 00:40:24.929 Atkins: I have time for just one very brief question from Dr. Kameny. 00:40:24.929 --> 00:40:34.448 Kameny: You've indicated that you don't really know that any of these supposedly dire consequences would flow from homosexual marriages. 00:40:34.448 --> 00:40:43.155 Kameny: Are you really willing on the basis of dubious logic and deductions to deny large groups of people their civil rights? 00:40:43.155 --> 00:40:45.657 Smith: Well, once again, I'm not denying them civil rights. 00:40:45.657 --> 00:40:51.181 Smith: I'm simply denying them a certain kind of bounty, and besides that, it seems to me that we can't afford to find out. 00:40:51.181 --> 00:40:53.023 Smith: I mean, I could be right too, you know. 00:40:53.023 --> 00:40:55.380 Atkins: Thank you very much for being on The Advocates. 00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:57.247 Atkins: Mr. Simon, your next witness, please. 00:40:57.247 --> 00:40:58.671 Atkins: Mr. Simon, your next witness. 00:41:08.909 --> 00:41:10.089 Simon: Dr. Socarides. 00:41:10.089 --> 00:41:19.141 Simon: Dr. Charles Socarides is an Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. 00:41:19.141 --> 00:41:31.106 Simon: Dr. Socarides, based on your clinical experiences and years in the psychoanalytic investigation of homosexuality, how would you describe the homosexual? 00:41:31.106 --> 00:41:47.858 Socarides: Well, Mr. Simon, the homosexual—that is, an exclusive homosexual, and there are various types of homosexual; there is homosexual behavior which is not true homosexuality—is a person who out of inner necessity must engage in homosexual relations. 00:41:47.858 --> 00:41:51.332 Socarides: Otherwise, he experiences a great deal of anxiety. 00:41:51.332 --> 00:42:10.945 Socarides: He's a product really of a process of very, very bad child rearing practices, which have caused certain difficulties in his own sense of identity, certain types of anxieties, and certain other inner conflicts, which make him on many occasions have an equilibrium which is quite unstable. 00:42:10.945 --> 00:42:28.175 Socarides: As a matter of fact, the homosexual act itself we now conceive of analytically as an exquisitely designed symptom which helps keep him in equilibrium, and that's why homosexual counseling centers should not tamper with this very, very delicate balance. 00:42:28.175 --> 00:42:30.831 Socarides: Those people were not trained to do so. 00:42:30.831 --> 00:42:45.728 Simon: Dr. Socarides, do you believe that the legalization of the homosexual union would aid the homosexual or would add to his instability? 00:42:45.728 --> 00:42:48.028 Socarides: That's quite a difficult question. 00:42:48.028 --> 00:42:59.267 Socarides: There are certainly some homosexuals who want economic advantages and feel better with that, but, however, I've seen very few homosexuals who ever really wanted marriage. 00:42:59.267 --> 00:43:07.416 Socarides: It occurs sometimes in older males who have younger men lovers and sometimes in older women with other young lesbian women. 00:43:07.416 --> 00:43:25.162 Socarides: Now, this is an economic advantage to some degree, but I think that marriage, as everyone has pointed out today, being such a difficult state, I think that the bonds which would keep them together, the state bonds, the national bonds, might create considerable anxiety. 00:43:25.162 --> 00:43:34.034 Socarides: Most homosexuals must seek, and strive, and look for numerous partners in order to try-and find themselves, the replicas of themselves. 00:43:34.034 --> 00:43:38.114 Simon: And marriage of course would prevent the changing of partners. 00:43:38.114 --> 00:43:38.980 Socarides: Yes, it would. 00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:39.788 Socarides: That's right. 00:43:39.788 --> 00:43:51.043 Socarides: It would make them subject not only to the laws, but to the laws as expressed by their partner who forced them to stay in relationships that they don't particularly want to stay in for very long. 00:43:51.043 --> 00:43:57.083 Simon: Well now, are these your reasons for refusing marriage to the homosexual? 00:43:57.083 --> 00:43:58.441 Socarides: No, absolutely not. 00:43:58.441 --> 00:43:59.255 Socarides: Not at all. 00:43:59.255 --> 00:44:20.156 Socarides: My reasons have to do something with the fact that I believe that this is a social recklessness to raise homosexual marriage to the status of heterosexual marriage, an extreme form of social recklessness, and also psychiatric disaster which has already happened recently in trying to normalize homosexuality. 00:44:20.155 --> 00:44:29.210 Simon: Well, what effect would the marriage of homosexuals have on youth and children in our society? 00:44:29.210 --> 00:44:36.021 Socarides: Well, we must go back to the fact that sexuality, the heterosexual pattern, is a piece of learned behavior. 00:44:36.021 --> 00:44:48.065 Socarides: You can learn homosexual patterning too, not true homosexuality perhaps, but homosexual behavior on a scale beyond your imagination, and with consequences perhaps too tragic to mention here. 00:44:48.065 --> 00:44:54.560 Socarides: There will be many, many more homosexual liaisons of a casual nature, many more homosexual encounters. 00:44:54.560 --> 00:45:12.595 Socarides: Youth itself may be led into self-despising patterns of homosexuality, frail heterosexual organizations of children may be tempted into homosexual behavior, which will have a deleterious effect on the sexual role in accordance with anatomy that a particular person has to play in life. 00:45:12.595 --> 00:45:14.108 Socarides: You cannot escape that. 00:45:14.108 --> 00:45:21.423 Socarides: Either man is either first as a male or a female, or he's an intersex, and most—we're not talking about intersexes. 00:45:21.423 --> 00:45:24.324 Socarides: A man must be a man, a woman must be a woman. 00:45:24.324 --> 00:45:27.036 Socarides: Now, there are certain variations of these. 00:45:27.036 --> 00:45:31.508 Atkins: I'm going to have to interrupt right now to indicate that it's now time for Dr. Kameny to question this witness. 00:45:31.508 --> 00:45:32.340 Atkins: Thank you, Mr. Simon. 00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:41.768 Kameny: Dr. Socarides, until 1942 your profession listed masturbation as a mental illness. 00:45:41.768 --> 00:45:43.699 Kameny: Is that not true? 00:45:46.315 --> 00:45:47.134 Socarides: I think . 00:45:47.134 --> 00:45:47.298 Socarides: . 00:45:47.298 --> 00:45:47.379 Socarides: . 00:45:47.380 --> 00:45:48.298 Kameny: Yes or no. 00:45:48.298 --> 00:45:49.467 Kameny: Dr. Socarides. 00:45:49.467 --> 00:45:49.560 Socarides: . 00:45:49.560 --> 00:45:49.653 Socarides: . 00:45:49.653 --> 00:45:49.745 Socarides: . 00:45:49.745 --> 00:45:54.602 Socarides: compulsive masturbation is still a form of psychiatric disorder, although it is not listed in the DSM-II. 00:45:54.603 --> 00:45:55.269 Kameny: So you have your own . 00:45:55.269 --> 00:45:55.327 Kameny: . 00:45:55.327 --> 00:45:55.355 Kameny: . 00:45:55.356 --> 00:45:58.018 Socarides: Yes, because it is a form, it is a form, yes. 00:45:58.018 --> 00:45:58.636 Kameny: Very well. 00:45:58.636 --> 00:46:01.049 Kameny: So you have your own listing of illnesses. 00:46:01.049 --> 00:46:11.657 Kameny: And the American Psychiatric Association, when it was founded in the vicinity of the middle 1850’s and its founder considered blackness to be a sign of genetic illness, is this not correct? 00:46:11.657 --> 00:46:13.889 Socarides: I'm not familiar with that, but perhaps you're right. 00:46:13.889 --> 00:46:14.374 Kameny: I am. 00:46:14.374 --> 00:46:18.497 Kameny: Now, of course we don't believe any of that today. 00:46:18.497 --> 00:46:20.438 Kameny: Judgments have changed. 00:46:20.438 --> 00:46:49.465 Kameny: Isn't it possible that in fifty years it will be considered just as ludicrous when we hear all the comments that you have made about homosexuality? And is it not true that even now the views which you express, as indicated by a poll which was initiated by you yourself of the American Psychiatric Association, represents the views of a minority of psychiatry? 00:46:49.465 --> 00:46:55.207 Socarides: Mr. Kameny, the poll, I'm afraid, is a fraud because . 00:46:55.207 --> 00:46:55.416 Socarides: . 00:46:55.416 --> 00:46:55.521 Socarides: . 00:46:55.521 --> 00:46:57.290 Kameny: Losers in polls always say that. 00:46:57.290 --> 00:46:58.041 Kameny: Dr. Socarides. 00:46:58.041 --> 00:47:00.452 Socarides: Well, I want to tell you something. 00:47:00.452 --> 00:47:03.599 Socarides: This is now being subject to serious scrutiny. 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:16.726 Socarides: We have entered a complaint on this matter because all the publicity and all the vote-getting procedures for the other side were dictated by, paid for, and sent out by the National Gay Task Force. 00:47:16.726 --> 00:47:18.153 Kameny: That is factually untrue. 00:47:18.153 --> 00:47:20.513 Socarides: And without the knowledge of the psychiatric profession. 00:47:20.513 --> 00:47:23.534 Socarides: Now, we just wonder what's going to happen in a re-run if we can get one. 00:47:23.534 --> 00:47:24.797 Kameny: You won't. 00:47:24.797 --> 00:47:34.550 Kameny: Is it not true that there are many homosexuals who do not seek a variety of partners? 00:47:34.550 --> 00:47:37.029 Socarides: I have not met very many, Mr. Kameny. 00:47:37.029 --> 00:47:53.202 Socarides: Occasionally you do meet one or two who really, however, want to be heterosexual and want to approximate a kind of male-female patterning, and they cannot tolerate the idea of society being so much against homosexuality as it has been in the past. 00:47:53.202 --> 00:47:55.028 Socarides: It is now changing, I know. 00:47:55.028 --> 00:48:07.876 Socarides: But I've only occasionally of the hundreds and hundreds of patients I've seen who are homosexual seen those who can be satisfied, not because they don't want to be, but because they can't help it. 00:48:07.876 --> 00:48:18.702 Socarides: They must find many, many objects who can fill them up with a kind of identity, and this means they must go from person to person to find this particular fulfillment. 00:48:18.702 --> 00:48:40.132 Kameny: Has it never occurred to you, Dr. Socarides, that the many gay couples whom I have seen who in fact do not seek a variety of partners, who do not seek to pattern their lives on a male-female model in any sense, wouldn't go near you and your colleagues for treatment because they don't need it, and therefore your sampling is grossly non-representative? 00:48:40.132 --> 00:48:42.784 Socarides: Well, that matter has come up before, Frank. 00:48:42.784 --> 00:48:51.800 Socarides: You know we've argued that, and it has been that we only see a skewed sampling of homosexuals because we only see those who come in who are complaining. 00:48:51.800 --> 00:49:02.818 Socarides: But these complaining ones then tell us of their friends, and occasionally their friends come in and see us for consultation; we find exactly the same thing with the same psychopathology. 00:49:02.818 --> 00:49:03.993 Kameny: Have you no conception. 00:49:03.993 --> 00:49:08.397 Kameny: Dr. Socarides, of what a travesty of science that it, the method you have just indicated. 00:49:08.397 --> 00:49:10.795 Kameny: That is not the way to do science, Dr. Socarides. 00:49:10.795 --> 00:49:23.414 Socarides: The only method I use, Mr. Kameny, is in depth psychoanalytic investigation, requiring weeks and weeks, if not months and years, of work before we come to a decision as to what really makes up an obligatory homosexual. 00:49:23.414 --> 00:49:31.366 Socarides: I'm not talking now about homosexual behavior, encounters engaged in for a variety of reasons and now because society tells us it's okay. 00:49:31.366 --> 00:49:34.132 Socarides: The effect of this on society will be enormous. 00:49:34.132 --> 00:49:41.104 Socarides: The effect of this on families, the effect of this on fathers who—they suffer a slight potency disturbance—will try men. 00:49:41.104 --> 00:49:51.304 Socarides: Women, unhappy with their husbands, may try women in a kind of temporary regression because this is the way they feel they can achieve temporary alleviation of their anxieties. 00:49:51.304 --> 00:50:01.503 Socarides: Adolescents, and not to mention the individual homosexual himself, will be put into despair because medicine and psychiatry is now telling him, "There's nothing wrong with you. 00:50:01.503 --> 00:50:03.693 Socarides: You're only neurotic and complaining. 00:50:03.693 --> 00:50:04.672 Socarides: Be a homosexual." 00:50:04.672 --> 00:50:07.481 Atkins: Doctor, we have time for just one brief question with a brief answer. 00:50:07.481 --> 00:50:10.194 Kameny: If two men—no, I'll change that. 00:50:10.194 --> 00:50:23.184 Kameny: You stated that in those instances where there were stable marriages or relationships between homosexuals, they always involve two couples of disparate ages. 00:50:23.184 --> 00:50:24.417 Kameny: You assigned . 00:50:24.417 --> 00:50:24.581 Kameny: . 00:50:24.581 --> 00:50:24.664 Kameny: . 00:50:24.664 --> 00:50:25.561 Socarides: I didn't say they were stable. 00:50:25.561 --> 00:50:27.159 Kameny: You assigned a variety of economic . 00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:27.245 Kameny: . 00:50:27.245 --> 00:50:27.289 Kameny: . 00:50:27.289 --> 00:50:27.873 Socarides: I didn't say they were stable. 00:50:27.873 --> 00:50:28.005 Kameny: . 00:50:28.005 --> 00:50:28.138 Kameny: . 00:50:28.138 --> 00:50:28.271 Kameny: . 00:50:28.271 --> 00:50:28.735 Kameny: bases. 00:50:28.735 --> 00:50:46.856 Kameny: Are you aware that all of the cases, the growing number that have come before the court to legalize gay marriages, have all been between two men, two women, of comparable ages and comparable circumstances, thereby belying your entire characterization of such relationships. 00:50:46.856 --> 00:50:49.409 Socarides: I'm sure there have been those too, but there are also the other kind. 00:50:49.409 --> 00:50:51.385 Kameny: Those are the only ones who have so far come forward. 00:50:51.385 --> 00:50:52.252 Atkins: Thank you very much. 00:50:52.252 --> 00:50:52.748 Atkins: Dr. Kameny. 00:50:52.748 --> 00:50:53.905 Atkins: Mr. Simon, another question. 00:50:53.905 --> 00:51:04.672 Simon: Do you realize, Doctor, that there have only been three cases of this kind? Do you feel that is an adequate number of cases to create the example that Dr. Kameny wants to suggest to you? 00:51:04.672 --> 00:51:05.217 Socarides: No, I certainly do not. 00:51:05.217 --> 00:51:16.967 Simon: Would you relate, please, to this audience what effect the creation of a mimic marriage through the homosexual marriage would have on the heterosexual family in our society? 00:51:16.967 --> 00:51:18.375 Atkins: Brief answer, please. 00:51:18.375 --> 00:51:23.072 Socarides: I think it will drive—homosexuality cannot keep our society going. 00:51:23.072 --> 00:51:28.470 Socarides: It cannot—it militates against the family and the cohesiveness of a society. 00:51:28.470 --> 00:51:36.742 Socarides: Future generations will give no thanks to us if we declare homosexual marriage is equivalent to heterosexual marriage. 00:51:36.742 --> 00:51:39.630 Atkins: Time for one brief question from Dr. Kameny. 00:51:39.630 --> 00:51:57.474 Kameny: Dr. Socarides, aren't you, in effect, trying to use your psychiatry as a means of social control and are therefore, in fact, simply imposing your own moral judgments upon the whole matter, which is not a proper function for psychiatry, or for you in your role as a psychiatrist? 00:51:57.474 --> 00:52:00.657 Socarides: Mr. Kameny, I'm not a politician, I am simply a clinician. 00:52:00.657 --> 00:52:19.969 Socarides: I know certain information, as do certain other analysts—that is, there are 179 references in my book, contrary to what Dr. Green said there is no evidence, which show that homosexuality of the obligatory type, not of transient type, not of the homosexual encounters, but in cases where it's obligatory and exclusive, that in those cases there is pathology. 00:52:19.969 --> 00:52:22.990 Socarides: We are interested in helping the individual homosexual. 00:52:22.990 --> 00:52:30.650 Socarides: The despair you create, sir, in burying the homosexual and taking him out of the realm of medicine and psychiatry, I would say is much worse. 00:52:30.650 --> 00:52:34.157 Socarides: I am for civil rights; I was the first psychiatrist in America . 00:52:34.157 --> 00:52:34.265 Socarides: . 00:52:34.265 --> 00:52:34.319 Socarides: . 00:52:34.318 --> 00:52:35.653 Atkins: Dr. Socarides, I'm going to have . 00:52:35.653 --> 00:52:35.729 Atkins: . 00:52:35.729 --> 00:52:35.767 Atkins: . 00:52:35.768 --> 00:52:36.262 Socarides: …to ask for civil rights. 00:52:36.262 --> 00:52:45.342 Atkins: I'm going to have to interrupt you and thank you very much for being our guest on The Advocates, but we must move along. 00:52:45.342 --> 00:52:54.195 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, Mr. Simon, that completes our cases, and now it's time for each of you to present your closing arguments. 00:52:54.195 --> 00:52:56.597 Atkins: Mr. Simon, your summary, please. 00:52:56.597 --> 00:52:58.505 Simon: Thank you, Mr. Atkins. 00:52:58.505 --> 00:53:03.068 Simon: The issue tonight is not civil rights for homosexuals. 00:53:03.068 --> 00:53:11.116 Simon: That is an appeal to your liberal conscience, and the personal bias of this particular audience. 00:53:11.116 --> 00:53:13.190 Simon: But it is a red herring. 00:53:13.190 --> 00:53:33.268 Simon: We favor the end to all forms of discrimination against homosexuals in sex, jobs, housing, and places of public accommodation, but the male-female marriage is now, and always has been, the place where babies are born, reared and conditioned. 00:53:33.268 --> 00:53:44.137 Simon: That is the first and the only reason why the state recognizes marriage and rewards it with special privileges and financial help. 00:53:44.137 --> 00:53:47.622 Simon: Without babies there would be no society. 00:53:47.622 --> 00:53:58.739 Simon: And since homosexual unions do not produce babies, there is no justification for them to be specially recognized or equally rewarded. 00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:01.062 Simon: This is not discrimination. 00:54:01.062 --> 00:54:10.189 Simon: There are essential differences between hetero- and homosexual couples that warrant differences in treatment. 00:54:10.189 --> 00:54:20.809 Simon: For homosexual couples to insist upon the same recognition as married couples is a falsification of basic biological realities. 00:54:20.809 --> 00:54:26.202 Simon: Same sex marriages constitute civil silliness, not civil rights. 00:54:26.202 --> 00:54:28.193 Simon: We urge you to vote no. 00:54:28.193 --> 00:54:29.023 Simon: Thank you. 00:54:29.023 --> 00:54:30.885 Atkins: Thank you, Mr. Simon. 00:54:30.885 --> 00:54:33.679 Atkins: Dr. Kameny, your summary, please. 00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:48.593 Kameny: The issue at hand is whether the alleged harmful effects of homosexual marriages justify denying civil rights, imposing second class citizenship and doing psychological damage to some fifteen million American citizens of all ages. 00:54:48.593 --> 00:54:54.146 Kameny: The answer is a resounding no because no such harmful effects at all have been shown. 00:54:54.146 --> 00:55:06.284 Kameny: Our witnesses have stated that such marriages would benefit both the individual homosexual and society and would do so without harming heterosexual marriages, and without harming society. 00:55:06.284 --> 00:55:19.197 Kameny: Such marriages would in no way at all interfere with or detract from traditional heterosexual marriages or from the institution of the family, but would merely extend them to people not now included. 00:55:19.197 --> 00:55:32.046 Kameny: The claim that homosexual marriages would endanger the survival of the human species is laughably ridiculous and unrealistic in an era in which over-propagation not under propagation is the problem. 00:55:32.046 --> 00:55:47.800 Kameny: One of the basic principles for which America stands is set forth in our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, as the "inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness," reworded currently as the right to do your own thing. 00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:53.611 Kameny: If you truly believe in Americanism, you can only vote yes upon the resolution before you. 00:55:53.610 --> 00:55:54.465 Atkins: Thank you. 00:55:54.465 --> 00:55:59.045 Atkins: And now it's time for you in our audience to get involved. 00:55:59.045 --> 00:56:01.219 Atkins: You've heard the advocates. 00:56:01.219 --> 00:56:16.127 Atkins: What do you think about tonight's question? Should marriage between homosexuals be permitted? Send us your "yes" or "no" vote on a letter or postcard to The Advocates, Box 1974, Boston 02134. 00:56:16.127 --> 00:56:23.658 Atkins: The issue of the rights of homosexuals is being debated in states and cities across the country. 00:56:23.658 --> 00:56:35.615 Atkins: What do you think? Send us your votes and we will tabulate the results and make them known to state representatives and others concerned with this issue. 00:56:35.615 --> 00:56:40.273 Atkins: Remember the address: The Advocates, Box 1974, Boston 02134. 00:56:40.273 --> 00:56:56.737 Atkins: Recently The Advocates debated the question, "Should we have a permanent Special Prosecutor's office?" Of the almost 1,100 votes we received, 45% said yes, that political conflicts of interest within the Department of Justice dictate the need for this new special office. 00:56:56.737 --> 00:57:03.456 Atkins: 55% said no, that the reasons for a Special Prosecutor's office would no longer exist once Watergate goes away. 00:57:03.456 --> 00:57:31.614 Atkins: Next week The Advocates will be originating from the Pacific Stock Exchange in Los Angeles, and let's take a look ahead to that program. 00:57:31.614 --> 00:57:35.931 Atkins: (Promotional Message) 00:57:37.460 --> 00:57:53.507 Atkins: And now, with thanks to our advocates and to their table of distinguished witnesses, and with special thanks to our audience here tonight and to the people of the University of California for allowing us the use of this Village Theater, we conclude tonight's debate. 00:58:02.152 --> 00:58:06.847 Announcer: The Advocates as a program takes no position on the issues debated tonight. 00:58:06.847 --> 00:58:10.431 Announcer: Our job is to help you understand both sides more clearly.