What was the most important contribution that James Brown made?

James Brown really reinvented the idea of rhythm in American popular music, that is black music from swing through early rhythm and blues had always been about dancing, about movement, about rhythm. But he took his band, especially his band from the late about '67 on, took rhythm to a whole ‘nother concept in the sense that everything became rhythm: the horn lines weren't melodic horn lines they were like short percussive horn lines like almost rhythm beats; the guitars instead of being melodic or playing sort of melodic pieces, again, very percussive, it was called chicken scratch like chh chh sounds; the bass line even the bass which is always a percussive instrument was used in a much more choppy, more biting kind of way. So everything became rhythm. Everything became intensified. The only thing that really wasn't rhythm in a way was this voice and even that was very much on point, very much on beat. So James took the concept of groove and intensified it so that every instrument on a James Brown recording augmented this idea of groove, everything was very polyrhythmic going on. And once he had done that with that band it flowed through all of American music, all American dance music.

Well. James Brown took the concept of dance music, and, and, and reinvented it by intensifying the levels of rhythm. That is to say that, within any James Brown recording, everything was rhythm. There was very little melody... ah... which was amazing. There was very little harmony outside the horn harmony. It was very much about the rhythm, about the intensity of the groove, about the interplay... the interlocking o different instruments. Ah... including taking things, even the horn lines, and making them sound percussive in a way that hadn’t been done before. So, that intensity, that idea of rhythm dominating everything, ah, was influenced, went on to influence Sly, P-Funk, disco. So many different kinds of American music came out of the James Brown concept of rhythm.

... percussive style too. Could you talk about that.

Well no James started out as a very traditional R and B singer, singing ballads and singing in a very style not that different from what Sam Cooke would do like "Please, Please, Please" etc.. But as he, as he began to evolve and the band the began to evolve, ah, they become more like what we could call rap records in a sense. They were essentially vocal interjections, they were vocal screams and shouts. They were like horn lines for the most part. And the lyrics became less and less, ah, again, carrying the melody and more about carrying rhythm. Again, much, very different from what he had done before and what was going on in let's say Motown or even Stax at the same time. So there was definitely that he did that no one else had done before. And, it spoke to a certain kind of blackness, if you will, a sort of Africanness in music that, that really hadn't been expressed in that way before. I mean if you listen to certain music from West Africa, bands in West Africa you hear that kind of rhythmic interplay esp., particularly in some of the use of the guitar parts which were very much similar to what you hear in James Brown's recordings. So he really instinctually took it back to the motherland, in that sense.

Well I think the thing to understand about, about this music [Interruption].

Again.

I think the thing to understand about this music is how much of it came out of touring experience and the road experience, that is to say that this phrase on the 1, it comes out of being on the road, the band comes in on the 1. It's a sense of we're on the road and we're in a collective of a bunch of people with noise and sound. We always have to be in sync about where we come in together, right. And so many of these records that we associate with James Brown, "Give it Up or Turn it Loose" was originally another song. But what happened is that James would, expanded the song so that he would go - now it's time for you to do the camel walk. He would be doing different dances and so the song expanded because James was a great dancer. So he would do the camel walk, hully gully, all those kind of dances were going on at that time. So the song got longer and longer till it evolved into something else. So on the 1 is a sense of, extension of this thing of being a live band performing in, in clubs of all kind, of places of all kind. Those happen to be in sync they come in on the 1, so to speak. So it really is a outgrowth of that, that sense of, of creativity on the run so to speak for always having a place that we all can be together on and that is on the 1.

Maceo, why was he important to James?

Well I may think that, what, what happened with that particular band had been the Pee Wee Ellis band and then when Maceo came in and then also Fred Wesley, they brought a sense of personality to the other instrument, instruments, instrumentalists in the sense that it had been James Brown band and, and before they came in it was the Fabulous Flames and James. And it was really these singers and James, so to speak, that shared the stage. Now it was the instrumentalists 'cause the band became stronger, it became less of a R and B group when the Fabulous Flames were there it was a lead singer James Brown, vocal harmony group with band. Now it became lead singer and band. And so the band became the dominant presence and not the, and not and they became less and less about traditional melody and harmony and more about rhythm and intensification of rhythm. And so Maceo and then Fred both stepped to the forefront to bring a little diversity. So the groove was going and you have a solo over the groove to give a little flavor to it also very much a jazz thing because the music became more experimental. I mean it was really interesting 'cause it was pop music, it was R and B music, it was commercial music but it was also very much experimental and on the run and evolving as it went along. So I'm sure Maceo hardly ever played exactly the same solo twice. You know and even when you would listen to the records, ah, ah, you think they're cut in the studio, they sound like live recordings. I mean there's very little over dubbing that you can tell, I mean it's like ___ the flow and people are talking you can hear people back talk on the records. So a sense of a community of a band that has a personality. And that's what Maceo sort of brought, he gave another texture in the way that almost a voice would instead of having a feature vocalist he had a featured soloist.

When we talk about funk which is what this music began to be labeled for James. What is it?

Well there's a lot of different ways to, to go about seeing, I mean funk or funky is always going back to the fifties, [sirens] always represented something that was a little more polyrhythmic, a little bit more down home. Soul music was very much influenced by church music, right. Funk was not as, was not as much church music was a really turn away from gospel, R and B to something that was a little bit more secular and with some jazz in it but also something very original, something just spoke to that particular time. Ah, so funk comes out of a, a very southern thing as well. I mean blues was very funky when you look back on it, what we would call, very rootsy, very much Brown. I mean he's a Georgia boy. He comes from a, a part of America in which black folks were called ‘bama, he, he was a ‘bama, James Brown was definitely a ‘bama and it was ‘bama music and it spoke to a lot of the roots of the community because ___ is kept, you know. Most black folks are ‘bamas. Most black folks are from the country. Most black folks come from that country aesthetic. And he tapped into that in a way that no one had really done quite the way he did it and there were, there were imitators, there were people who were peers of his, who were very strong, had a little bit of that same flavor like a Otis Redding. But they were more song oriented and James became this other thing which wasn't song oriented, which was totally groove oriented.

How important is the groove to black folks?

Well, ah, it, it's funny. Groove is everything. I mean groove is, ah, you can't make love without a groove. I mean it's all about interlocking rhythms, if you will. You know what I'm saying. So James Brown took the concept of groove, I mean black folks have been to swing music, Motown had a certain kind of beat, a rhythm but there was something very sexual about what James Brown did. I mean a funny thing was there's these stories that are told about how, Sam Cooke, Jackie Wilson and James Brown were like rivals. They were like the kings of R and B coming out of the early sixties. And as the story goes because Jackie Wilson and Sam Cooke were supposed to be prettier, quote, unquote prettier that they would get, you know they would snap on James Brown 'cause he had his ‘bama blah blah blah. But, ah, as James evolved he became the man. His band became the man. It became, he became the king in a way that after Sam died and Jackie couldn't keep up. So he really outstripped everybody and he went back by being, going back to the root. Where Sam had been very smooth and even, you know and Jackie had gone in the Vegas thing. Sam, I mean James Brown stayed true to a certainly kind of rootsiness. And that made him more sexual. That made him more, his music so much more groove oriented, more flavorful that way.

Go ahead.

A key thing to understand about James Brown is that he was a touring band and by, meaning he was on the road, he went to different cities all the time, he saw how people were dancing around the country and he was a great dancer in his own right. So he was constantly aware of making his rhythms fit whatever dance was going on. Ah, he would go to Georgia, he would be in Detroit, he would be in Memphis and he would see they are moving this way. And he would correspond, okay, this is a dance that's coming out, I need to be on top of this. What rhythm would work with this dance? So, so much of black popular music has historically been about dance music but it's about the interplay between the dancer and the musicians. That is it goes back and forth.

Pick up.

So much of it is, is literally a dance because what happens usually is a new dance comes out pegged to a certain kind of beat. Musicians hear that and go, okay, we need to make records that respond to this beat or musicians come out with a certain kind of groove and that groove becomes so popular that dancers respond to that groove with certain movements. So it goes back and forth this, this interplay between the community of dancers, the audience, and that of the musicians who actually make the music. Ahm, and they go back and forth, they watch each other so to speak. I mean so many, ah, the idea, I know a lot of musicians when they have a new record they go to certain clubs and test, they get a test pressing or an advanced cassette to see how dancers respond to it. So and James Brown because he was the great, he was the best touring band. He worked constantly. I mean he was always on the road. He was constantly on top of the latest movements in terms of dance and the community. And so musically he'd respond to that. That's one reason he so many singles out. He was a guy who really made records that responded to what he saw in front of him when he played the Apollo or the Howard or the Uptown, whichever venue he was at. So, black music, black dancers, black audience all kind of in a mix. You can't distance the artist from the community, ah, because that usually results in the artist losing step. And James Brown was in step with black America for almost ten years or so which is an amazing amount of time for any artist to be right on tune. I mean he was right there until like at least 1973 and the guy's career starts back in the fifties. So he had an amazing run of being right there where the community was musically, where the community was dance-wise and, and that's very extraordinary.

How about ... socially?

Well again, I mean part of, part of what happened is a, is several things: one that James was sort of a megalomanic, had a very high sense of himself and a high sense of where he belonged in black America. And that's part of, you know, most leaders. He had a sense of himself as this leader. That led him to also, you tied it in with the fact that he was very sensitive what was going on in the community in terms of grass roots and the feeling that the two things led him toward being more political. Ah, a funny story "Say it Loud I'm Black and I'm Proud" while very successful also some people say that it also damaged him down the road because there might have been a lot of people who resented this overtly pro-black statement from him. And it may have hurt him in the long run in terms of his record sales. I mean who knows for sure? But certainly "Say it Loud I'm Black and I'm Proud" was a major statement coming from a major artist at that time, ____"Soul Brother Number One". And for a while there James Brown represented, you know, what black people were into at that moment, whatever. In a strange way with Michael Jackson represented at one point in his career about black crossover and about black mass acceptance, James Brown represented in 1968, '69, '70, '71 about a certain kind of pride. I mean he went from, when he went from the process to the Afro that was major, that was a major, major thing because it represented a change 'cause he was so symbolic 'cause he had a process for years. He had a really elaborate do, his stuff was done. So when he went from a process to Afro it was like, for anybody who was still wearing the process, he would just oh, he would just like, you're just a retrograde backwards Negro. It was time to be black. And when James Brown got the Afro that just said everything that needed to be said.

Could you give something with the king of black America.

See, I never heard that phrase before.

It's in your book.

I may have made it up though. I don't know. Etc..

Yeah part of, part of the leadership thing is that he was a leader on a lot of levels. I mean he was one of the first black entertainers to have his own radio stations. There was actually, ah, ah, there was, I don't think he had bread but he had some other kinds of, you know he had like thing, James Brown this, James Brown that, godfather of soul this, soul brother number one that. He was, he was known to be a really sharp businessman. He was a very, had a lot more control of his career than most black artists did at that time. His acquisition of his radio station is very symbolic of black control and power. The fact that, you know, he was involved in endorsing Hubert Humphrey was a big deal at the time. The fact that when the riot happened after King's death his broadcast, his show was broadcast live from Boston Garden as a way to keep people calm during that time. I mean he was perceived in a way in terms of his political, social impact, ah, that very artists ever had that kind of clout, very few black artists certainly. To be perceived as someone who could stop people from rioting is another level of the game. And you got to remember that was a time when you had black mayors for the first time, had a lot of sense of moving forward. And he was part of that, his music was part of that 'cause it was so black. I mean when people were starting to criticize Motown saying they were too soft or they were too Las Vegas couldn't be said about James Brown. James Brown came right from the root and he spoke to every brother on the corner. I mean the fact that the connection can be made between hip hop music today and James Brown's music, the sampling is in the same, it affects the same thing. Rap music in the nineties, eighties spoke to a certain person in the community very, very directly. It reached outside but there was a group of people who really felt this and James Brown was that for that particular time in the late sixties or early seventies he was the guy who spoke to the brother on the corner and the sister on the corner for that matter.

Could you tell me about how Motown was afraid to be up front.

Well see I don't think, I mean I don't know if Motown was afraid. They had certain records that, that, I mean they had rec., Motown is a lot .

I actually have Berry Gordy saying how ___ going on

What did Bootsy bring to James?

Well I think Bootsy at that time, you know, brought youth. He brought new energy. He brought another way of hearing. Ah, I mean the thing that makes a great musician is, I mean there's a lot of people who can technically play and you always find guys, sessions musicians who can play very well and do commercial jingles, whatever. The guys who stick out are people who hear different, who hear, who can play but hear the way the music should be put together differently. And, ah, what they call the new breed. Bootsy brought this kind of way of hearing that was very radically different, not radially different but significantly different from what James was doing before enough to push him to another place that maybe James has been going to as well. But the Bootsy really, oh, he can play this stuff and he makes it work. Ahm, it's a way of hearing. He just heard music differently, the way he heard percussion, the way he heard bass line, the way he heard the way the bass interplays with a drum, the way it interplays with a guitar, ah, was in keeping with where James was going and he, but his own way of hearing along with what Fred was doing along with what Maceo heard along with what James Brown heard, took it to a whole ‘nother place.

Talk about "Sex Machine".

Well for me I first heard "Sex Machine" in a summer school in the cafeteria of summer school. No one wanted to be there in the first place and this record came on in the cafeteria and everyone was just going berserk, there was just some other kind of energy un., unleashed. And the difference between pre "Sex Machine" James Brown and post is simply, part of it is just young energy. There was a new energy in the community, the nationalists were coming in there was a whole ‘nother kind of aggressive black thing that was happening and that music was right there on the point of it 'cause he had a new band, he had young guys who had this new energy that was different from what happened before. If James moved differently it's because literally the grooves were different and like we, we've been talking, dancing, groove, they all interplay. As the musicians changed, as the mood changes, the dancing changes, ah. And so the, the grooves then were much more, I mean this intensifies, it's intensification of rhythm that we had talk that James had been evolving into really was hit right here. And the new band really brought the noise, again, I think the youth has a lot to do with it and I think it changes, it's like any great artist, I mean you notice that over time they, at some point the evolutionary moves they make. Miles Davis is, was a great example, as a, you know as a peer of James Brown. You can see the moves in Miles's evolution through the people in the band and James Brown was very, very similar. And one of the reasons that James Brown managed to stay on top of the game for like ten years or so was precisely, precisely because he was sensitive to the mood changes and was able to articulate them musically. I mean it's one thing to know there's a change going on, another thing to be able to find a, a vocabulary that speaks to that change. And that's what the band with Bootsy and that whole new breed band did for him.

I mean during that period of, of '67, '68 into that era there was a lot of great bands. There was the Bar-Kays and the MGs, Ted, Joe Tex __ had a great band but what was going on in black music they were the, James Brown band was the band that everyone held up as the standard. Guys would hang outside the places they played, the Howard Theater, whatever, with their instruments to audition for whatever town they went to 'cause they were the key band to be and they were the guys. They, they were the sharpest, they moved the best and they played the best.