No. But I can tell you that.

Anytime.

Um, Ben E. King, who had this marvelous voice and still does by the way, uh, was as we know the lead singer of the Drifters. But the Drifters, as I may have mentioned before, worked for the people who owned the name, the, uh, manager, accountant, lawyer, whatever. And as it turns out none of the people in the Drifters got paid royalties. They got, they were on a weekly salary which included their recording and their personal appearances. And uh, Ben E. hooked up with a different manager, a fellow named Al Wild. And Al called us and asked us if we would produce Ben E. on a solo recording, and we said, of course. And that's how that came to be. And the first session, which had four tunes on it, one of them was "Spanish Harlem," which Jerry wrote with Phil Spector, and one of them was a collaboration of Ben E. and Jerry and myself called "Stand By Me." And they were on the same session, there were four tunes. And we tried to get them in in three hours, I think we went a half hour over, but they're still selling.

Do you remember anything in particular about the genesis of "Stand By Me," what got that song started?

You mean in writing it or in selling it?

In writing it.

Oh, well, Ben E. came in and, and sang, almost like a sort of semi, you know quasi-audition, just to let us, you know, hear his voice. And he sang about, he sang one or two songs that were established hits of other people's. And then he sang about four or six or eight bars of this song "Stand By Me" with maybe two lines of lyrics and the rest he was just jamming it. And we asked him about the song and he said, well, it was something he started writing but he sort of got stuck with it. And uh, we liked it a lot, and we asked him if he'd like us to write it with him, and he said he would be thrilled, you know? And we wrote the song with him. And that's how that happened. Um, it was one of the, I think, Ben E. got the, I don't really know, he never told me but I would guess, because Ben E. is not a songwriter, he's a singer, he might have written two songs in his whole career. I would guess that this is, comes out of church. The whole "stand by me" and the way the release takes out, it sounds like a --

It sounds like a gospel --

Gospel type song.

-- song.

And um, and it worked. And he knew it, he knew, he knew the piece, well, even though there was no song, he knew the music. He was very familiar with the music which leads me to believe that it was probably a, probably some PD gospel number that he was trying to adapt.

But we framed it totally differently with, um, the bass pattern, which I wrote for it. And then the orchestration which we created for it. Um, with the Stanley Applebaum strings in the release in the middle, and it just became a whole different thing with the percussion, the, the, uh, triangle and so on, so forth.

Did he have a solo recording contract at this time?

Yes.

Apparently he credits you guys with enabling him to have a solo career.

Well, it was, it was --

It was through Al Wild and through the success of the Drifters and his ability to separate himself from the Drifters and thereby become a, an artist who recorded and received royalties for the records sold.

Atlantic was not unhappy about Al Wild taking Ben E. out of the Drifters, leaving the Drifters as a hit act, and having a possibly second hit act with Ben E.

When he left, uh, a few other people came in. Uh, Rudy Lewis became a lead singer with the Drifters. He had been in the group but had not been lead. And uh, I think Charlie Green as well alternating on leads. And then Johnny Moore I believe came back, who had been with the Drifters years before and then also did some lead work with the Drifters. But they were salaried guys, whereas Ben E. was an artist in his own right on the label.

I'd rather talk about the Beatles.

Apparently they were fans and they did two of your songs I think on their original demos?

Two or three, yeah.

Let's talk about when you first heard about the Beatles.

I first heard the Beatles I guess in the early '60s, on, on the radio. And I loved them. I mean, the songs, I, I even loved the songs even though most of the early songs were kind of teenage, teen-oriented songs, I just loved the whole thing. They were very refreshing sounding to me and I thought they were very exciting. But then what they grew into became even much more exciting and for me the, I think the high point of the '60s was "Sgt. Pepper's" and "Rubber Soul" I think, they're still marvelous recordings. They were just brilliantly written and brilliantly executed. Uh, George Martin's work with them was fantastic, the songs were great.

Does the whole thing about white singers and R and B, that's really, does that enter into your initial reactions to them at all or not?

Not the Beatles. No, the Rolling Stones I would say, we would say, wait, you know, because that's my, my response, you know, in the early years, it was hold on, you can't sing the blues, you know? White boy don't tell me how to sing the blues. But not the Beatles. The Beatles were something else.

Did you hear any of yourselves in them, in the Beatles?

No, I didn't. I know they sang some of our songs and later, I mean, they did a version of "Kansas City" based on Little Richard's uh, version of our song. But uh, later on, when they released their demo album, I think that's what it was called, for London Records, uh, I know they had done "Searching" and I think "Three Cool Cats," they were generally awful, those early ones. But when I first heard them I loved them.

I did too, but I feel, I, I, unlike Mike, I did, I did glean a certain kind of, subtle, but a certain influence, uh, from us, and especially I think vis-a-vis the Coasters. With those two leads up front, when they sang lead, when McCartney-Lennon were singing in thirds or whatever, or fourths.

And drinking fifths.

Yeah.

Let's talk about Redbird. How had the business and perhaps the Beatles had something to do with your disk, but what were the changes that put things in such a steady, or put the whole thing in your career, in such a position that you were now going to start the label.

Well, I'll tell you initially we had a falling out with the management of Atlantic and we parted company. And we went to United Artists and we built a stable of artists there with the Exciters --

Jay and the Americans. There were a few other people.

With, with Mike Clifford. A couple, three or four artists that were hit artists. And uh, we stayed there for a while, and without going into detail, we decided again, we looked at each other and said, you know what? Why not? Why shouldn't we have our own label. We've been working for these guys for like, you know, years, we should have our own label. So we started our own label, and uh, it was originally called Tiger, the first label was Tiger, and um, we were making these kind of Atlantic oriented kind of soul records with Alvin Shine Robinson from New Orleans. And we love these kind of records with voices like that. And we were getting these hit reviews and the records were not selling and we couldn't fathom that. We just couldn't fathom that. And it was strange that two characters like ourselves, who had been in the business since 1950 didn't really know the business. We knew how to write songs and we knew how to make records, but we didn't know how to promote anything. And we didn't know how they did it, because we were always in the studios. There was hearsay but we didn't understand it. Um, we were about to go out of business. One night Mike and I were sitting up in the Brill Building, and Mike said, I think, he says, man, I think we've had it, let's get out of this. We've got about 18,000 dollars left in the bank and I don't want to hear, I don't want any more of this, I've had it. And um, it was late, and we were both kind of demoralized, and I went over to Al and Dick's to have a drink and go home. And I walked in and Hy Weiss was sitting back at the dinner tables with George Goldner, and Hy waved to me to come back to join him for a drink. And uh, I went back, and um, and I sat down and I had a drink and this very embarrassing conversation was going on between George Goldner and Hy Weiss. It seemed that George Goldner was again down on his luck. George had a reputation, which I didn't know at that time, George had a reputation for being a congenital gambler, and he lost four or five major labels to Morris Levy. Or Morris Levy was the backer, and he ended up giving the labels to him because --

He owed the shylocks.

He owed the shylocks and the collateral was the labels and that's the way it happened. Ta-da-ta-da-ta-da. Well, Hy, Hy Weiss is offering George a job at something like 250 dollars a week. George Goldner is sitting there with probably the only good suit in Al and Dick's and the most expensive cigarette lighter from Tiffany's and a diamond stickpin in his tie, you know, and he's used to having and handling and making tons of money, right? Hy Weiss has got Old Town Records with Arthur Prysock and he does pretty well, but he never came close to the kinds of success, you know, that George Goldner had with Frankie Lymon, etc., and all the labels he started.

All the Latin labels --

All the Latin, Tiko, and Rama and Gee and Gone and End --

And Roulette.

And Roulette, which he started, right? So we heard, I knew of George Goldner, I knew of his name, but I didn't know of his entire like reputation in history, you know? I didn't know that. We knew that he was really good in --

Promoting records.

Promoting records and owning labels. And he knew, and Hy was putting on an act for me, a show. He was smoking this big cigar and he was blowing cigar smoke into, into George's face. And George was saying, Hy, cut it out, man. C'mon, cut it out, it's not funny. And Hy turns to me and says, would you give a loser like this more than 250 dollars a week to go out on the road and promote a record. Would you trust a racetrack dingo like this? I mean he wants, he wants 750 dollars a week. He said, you know, dead you're not even worth that. And he's doing this game with me. And George is annoyed, but he's long suffering, you know, but he's been through this, he's been through Hy Weiss a hundred thousand times, and he's looking for a real winner in the room, right? He's looking for a live fish, like a piranha, you know? I'm sitting there, and George turns to him and he says, Hy, he said, I cannot pay the mortgage on my garage with 250 dollars a week. My garage costs more money than your entire life. And it was this kind of conversation. And I'm sitting there listening, and Hy gets up to go to the bath-, the men's room. And he gets up to go, this is a real Hollywood story. Ah ha, he gets up to leave and I turn to George, I said, George, I said, you want to go into business. He says what? I said, do you want to go into the record business. He says, you're not pulling my leg, are you? He says, I got no more time tonight for pulling my leg, he's been pulling my leg all night, he's going to bloke smoke in my face one more time and I'm going to cut his throat. I said, I'm not joking. I said, we're about to go out of business. We've got 18,000 dollars left in the bank. He said, 18,000 dollars. Not bad, not good. You got any unreleased records? I said, yeah. He said, how many? I said, about 11. He says, 11? Why you got so many unreleased records. I said, you know, it's like that, okay? We came out with two or three records, we got great reviews, we put 'em out and they didn't sell, they didn't sell? Why didn't they sell? I said, I don't know, they got great reviews. By this time, Hymie is back. He sits down. He says, so now what's, uh, happening genius, you ready to go to work for 250 dollars a week? And George says, wait a minute, just wait a minute. He said, why don't you think the records sold? He says, what are you talking about, what are you guys talking about? I said, we're talking about our record business. Mike and I are about to go out of business. Oh, why? I said, well, we put out these records and they got these great reviews in Cashbox and Billboard, and they're not selling, and we're very close to being broke. He said, Leiber and Stoller broke? I said, well, broke in the record business, why? Why aren't they selling. I said, well, I don't know. He said, well, what do you do with them. I said well, we make them, you know, we mix them, right, we finish them, and then we send samples to our, uh, distributors and we send copies to all the disk jockeys in the R and B field. And they're looking at me, both of them, and they say, yeah, and then what do you do? I said, I don't know what we do, that's what we do. He says, you don't do anymore? I said, what are you supposed to do? And they both look at each other and they start laughing. And what's his name says to me, Goldner says, 18,000 dollars, right? And Hy says, what is this 18,000 dollars? He says, the kid tells me he's got 18,000 dollars in the bank. Hy turns to me and says, the chicken's telling the fox where the lock is on the henhouse. He says, you're out of your mind. He says, you're going to be out of business in 24 hours with this thief. George at that point, which was the most elegant move he made in the evening, goes inside his coat pocket and he takes out this beautiful, silver, initialed, Cartier cigarette lighter and case, and he opens it up, he smoked Pall Mall, long cigarette, he takes it out, and he closes the case, and he tamps it very carefully, he puts it in his mouth and he lights it, he takes a deep drag and he turns around to Hy and he goes -- [blowing noise]

At that precise moment, George Goldner reached into his inside coat pocket, and he took out this beautiful, silver, cigarette case and lighter. He opened it up and he took out a long cigarette, I think it was a Pell Mell and he tamped it very deliberately on the case. He put it in his mouth, and he lit it. And he took a very, very deep drag, he turned around to Hy Weiss and he went -- [blowing noise] And that was the beginning of Redbird Records.

So Big Mama is uh, is singing this song, but she's crooning it, and uh, which was not the way it was supposed to go. And I said, uh, excuse me, um, Big Mama, I said, but it don't go like that. And the whole garage got quiet. The band, everybody in the place, a deathly silence fell over the entire place, and she turned and looked at me, I thought she was going to punch me in the face. And she said, it don't go like that, it don't go like that. She said, it go like this, and she went, ahahahahahahahah, to the band, and they cracked up. They thought that this was hilarious. And she turned around to me and she said, white boy, don't you be telling me how to sing the blues. And I was about to say something when Johnny said, wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on, hold on, hold on. Now, he said, uh, this is business, right, we're taking care of business. And he goes over to Big Mama and he says, now, we're taking care of business, aren't we? And all of a sudden she became very together, and she said, oh yes sir. And uh, he said, now, we don't want any trouble down here now do we? We don't want any trouble. And she says, oh no, no sir. And he said, this is all, we ought to act like professionals, and we're trying to do something together. This is a joint venture, you know, writers, singers, musicians, right? Oh, right. Now, um, Jerry why don't you take the song, and Mike, why don't you go to the piano, and demonstrate how the song is to be done, right? We said, right. She said, yes sir. And I turned to Mike, who was already on his way out the door, and I said, Mike, Mike! And he said, like, what? And I said, Mike, would you please play the piano. And Mike reluctantly went over to the piano, by the way, the piano still had been appropriated by Lady Di, the piano player for, for Johnny's band, and she was very foreboding looking. And she didn't want to really get up from the piano stool, she wanted to play it. But Johnny looked at her and she got up. Johnny was a very effective bandleader. Mike sat down, and, and we performed the song. And we really, we, we tore, I must say, I must just say it myself, we tore it apart, and we just put a hole through the song. And the band was yelling and screaming and clapping and they liked it. And a big smile appeared on Big Mama's face like we had been forgiven because we had proven that we were really down. And uh, she picked up the song, and she started rehearsing it immediately and Johnny Otis started, and sat in on drums and created the beat that was to become the beat of the hit record. And that's how jazz came up the river and turned into --

Impressions of Phil Spector when you first arrived in New York.

Very, very, very skinny undernourished kid.

Yeah, that was Phil. Phil Spector.

When he spent about six months before making "He's A Rebel" playing table top hockey at Liberty Records, said he was going to Spain and all this stuff, did you think he was crazy or did you think he was up to something?

I didn't know him then.

Didn't know him.

Okay. Thank you, research. What about the wall of sound, what's your reaction to that whole Phil Spector --

Oh, that's simple. It's very simple. Here's what it was. Uh, we let Phil like hang out with us, which was my, you know, promise to Lester Sill, who asked us if we would take him in, which we did. And we left, and uh, and Phil wanted to sort of apprentice himself to us, and that was the arrangement. In fact we signed Phil to a three year contract and that was part of the deal. And uh, we took him to every session that we did, which was considerable, we were doing an awful lot of work. And whenever we felt we could stick him in the rhythm section or give him a little bit of a lead on guitar or whatever, we did it. So he ended up playing like the lead, like the solo on "On Broadway" which doesn't kill me, but is all right, it's history now, right? Uh, and the rhythm section on a number of other, uh, pieces. Mike and I, obviously you know, it's history, evolved this sound of, you know, percussion, which was, is out of Brazil, you know. We can show you all the sources, because it happened, each source comes long before us. There was that little group in California. What's its name?

Jo Carioca.

Jo Carioca.

They had been Carmen Miranda's rhythm section when she came to California and they worked as a unit at the, um, at the Marquee on Sunset Boulevard.

Okay. This was a, this was a rhythm section that used to knock me cold. I loved them. And the first chance I had to talk to Mike about using them was in a certain instance, right, on a song, where I figured a samba would work, because most of the stuff they did was a variation of a samba and that's what a bayon is, you know. We created this kit, you know, and these the bayon and the variations of the bayon with our drums, which we had at this place and we rented.

They used to call it, people used to call up and ask for the Leiber-Stoller kit, which consisted of various conga drums, the African hairy drum, which is what we called it, and various other percussion instruments that we used in creating this rhythm, including the wiro, the triangle and so on and so forth.

I think it was kind of, you know, sort of this. He was with us for a while, and we used strings, and we used sometimes, we'd double or triple or quadruple instruments. Mike Stoller had a long history with classical music and serial music and studied with Volpe and knew his way around the orchestra pretty well. And I had some of these goofy, crank rhythm ideas that worked out just from things that I'd heard and loved. And we put all this stuff together and it amounted to what you heard mostly on Drifters and Ben E. King records. Actually, Burt Bacharach was the most influenced by all this, and he used it ad infinitum in doing the Dionne Warwick records, and it worked beautifully for the kind of songs that he wrote. Now soundwise, I think that Phil was very much influenced by this stuff. He took it and he upped the ante. Instead of having two pianos, he would have four or six. Instead of having four guitars he'd have 12 guitars. And because he was a cheapskate, he recorded at Gold Star, which was very cheap. And they had an echo sound that was, you couldn't duplicate it, it was gorgeous, right? And if you pushed all of this crap, you know, through a filter at Gold Star, you got what was finally called by some smart marketing person the wall of sound. That I think is the way that came up the river, more or less, give or take.

Perhaps a few words during his early days down on Broadway about Don Kirschner?

Donny Kirschner once came to me, and he said, Jer, would you teach me the music business? I said, Don, that would take a long time. And he said, nah, maybe just over lunch. That's Donny Kirschner. He at the time was Bobby Darrin's manager, or what, he was --

He was delivering songs for another publisher. But I remember on the street corner of 7th Avenue and 57th Street one day, Jerry and I were, uh, I think leaving Atlantic Records to go somewhere and he was on his way there with a lead sheet man, and he said, listen guys, um, I'm going to go into the music publishing business, and would you guys like, I mean, would you guys want to come into with me. And we said, well, that's, that's really very flattering, but uh we have our arrangement with Atlantic and we have another arrangement with the Allenbachs and so on and so forth. And of course, we figured he wouldn't last very long, like the song "On Broadway," but he, he became one of the biggest music publishers in New York, with his partner Hal Nevins, starting Alden Music, which eventually became Screen Gems, and had all these young writing teams like Goffin and King, and Barry Mann-Cynthia Weil.

Sedaka.

Neil Sedaka and Howard Greenfield.