Logan H. Westbrooks.

I'm Logan H. Westbrooks.

Just tell me why ...

Well, in my opinion, uh, Clive Davis, who was the head of CBS Records at that particular time, from an ego standpoint, and also from a business standpoint, here is gentleman that was so, uh, thoroughly involved in music, and his company that he headed, dominated every category of music except black music, or R and B as it was called at that particular time. And because of that reason in my opinion, I think that he made the decision to go into the black music business 100 percent.

Tell me about the .... What were his recommendations?

Well, I don't think, number one The Harvard Study, I don't think initially it was set out to be a blueprint or a pattern for CBS Records to follow. There was a gentleman who was a consultant to Clive Davis, his name was Larry Isaacson, he also was a graduate of Harvard, and he made the decision that I am going to sell Clive Davis on the idea of this Harvard Study. Basically, The Harvard Study is the study that is conducted by graduate students in the School of Business, and they will take an actual problem from a company and investigate and thoroughly, thoroughly research that problem and come up with some recommendations. And that's what that study was all about.

To come up with a recommendation about what?

To come up with a recom… the study was to come up with recommendations for CBS to penetrate the black music business, not only to penetrate it, but to dominate it, to take it over completely.

And what were the recommendations in terms of how well -- a custom label?

Well, the custom labels, one of the recommendations for the custom labels was just one of the methods for entering the black music business. It was also decided that through the use of, through the vehicle of a custom label, they could enter that business much faster simply because a custom label would sort of specialize in black music. CBS Records, being a basically white dominated company, they not only didn't have the know-how but they didn't even have the A and R people capable at that particular time to bring in the black acts that was needed for exploitation.

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Well, in my opinion, I think that Gamble and Huff, Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, uh, some of the most talented individuals at that particular time in the music industry. And fortunately for CBS, they came along and the ideas and the talents that they had, it was a good match. Now, with that talent that they had, and a company such as CBS, I mean that mighty marketing machine of CBS, pouring the two of them together, it was just no stopping them. And when Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff came in with their product -- now, initially there was some hesitation from the standpoint of the field staff of CBS, but they were so talented, the music was so good until the sales staff had to respond to it simply because the buying public was responding to it. And a salesman will respond to sales every time.

Speaking of sales, tell me about the whole phenomenon of crossing over -- how does that happen?

Well, uh, usually the decision is made -- ideally, ideally, a person that is working black music, what you want to do is cross your music over to Top 40, and I'm using the term Top 40 because that's the term that was used at that particular time, we're talking about the '70s. And if I am working a black record, I want to cross that record over from black radio to Top 40 or to white radio. Reason being there are more white folks buying records than black folks. And through the vehicle of radio you're able to expose it to many, many more, uh, to the buying public. So what you want to do, you want to cross that record over every time to expose it more to the, for more potential customers.

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Oh yes. There, there was resistance, there was resistance not only in CBS, the record company, but at the radio level as well. I mean, those lines were drawn. You know, black music is for black folks on black radio stations. And white music is for white folks on white, white radio stations. But now we found that the buying could care less. They were just interested in music that made them move. But the problem, the problem was convincing the record company that this is what we should do, this is the right thing to do, even from a profit standpoint or a sales standpoint. Let's cross it over, let's expose it, but those racial lines were drawn. So purposely, purposely black music was kept in the black community, white music was kept in the white community. It was almost virtually impossible to get your record into a white radio station.

What is the mechanics of this? I mean you basically have to take this stuff to the top people …

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Yeah. Well, at that particular time, the way that record companies were structured, there was the black division or a black individual that worked only black records. And then there was the white division, or the Top 40 division. Now, in most companies at that particular time, even your major companies, you had a complete Top 40 or a white division that worked all of the white records. You had usually one black individual that worked the entire country. You may have a white individual on a regional basis. You had a, a, a, a national pop promotion manager. You had your regional pop promotion managers, and you also had your local pop promotion managers. But on the black side, you would have just one black individual that was responsible for the entire country. Some companies at that particular time, some of the larger companies, would expand that somewhat. They may come up with a concept of one national man on the black side, a Midwest, West Coast, East Coast, and South. They would have five black individuals working black records. That's the larger record companies. And they were responsible for working, servicing and breaking all of the black records. Now, they would only work black records would only go to black radio stations. The pop department would only concern themselves with white records and white radio stations. So that's they way that they were structured. Now, in my opinion, the genius of Clive Davis, he made the decision that I want to penetrate the black music business, and that's why I was hired. I was hired in November of '70, uh, '71. My mission, my job assignment was to create a black marketing division to explore, to penetrate, and to exploit the black music business. That was my mission. And I was given all the tools that was necessary to do that. Fortunately for me, I was hired by a company that had the financial resources. Usually, usually in this business, a company would release a record, and then as that record created sales, as that record generated sales, then that company would tool up, would staff up. But in this instance, I was given the authority to go ahead and hire staff. Now we didn't have any black pro-, product to work at all. So what I did, I contacted the program directors of every major radio station, black radio station, in every major market, throughout the entire country. And I asked them for recommendations. And the thinking is, if you are a program director and you recommend a particular individual, I'll hire that individual, when he comes to you with one of my records, he is going to play that record. So consequently I was given recommendations, and I went out and I interviewed those men, and I hired every last one of them. Now, the structure, when I went to CBS, they had that one national man, and the four regional concept. That's who they had working at that particular time. So that when I came in to restructure the department, I went in and hired local black promotional men, which is completely unheard of. A record company would not hire a local black promotional manager, so this is what I was doing. The markets I selected, starting right with the number one market, was New York City. I had a local man for that market. I had a local man for the, for Philadelphia, a local man for the Baltimore-Washington area, a local man for Detroit, a local man for Cleveland, a local man for, for Chicago, Illinois. I hired a local man in Atlanta, and a local man on the West Coast in Los Angeles. Now in hiring those local men, I also set up or created a…

In hiring those local men, it meant that I had immediate identification in the marketplace of my product, my product being those things that were released on the CBS label or any of the things that came under the custom label banner, which at that particular time, the way it was structured all the custom labels came through Epic Records, which was headed by a fellow named Warner Lexinberg, who also was a record jockey. I mean he was determined to get a record played or to sell a record. I mean he was a, I would say that he was just a 100 percent record man. Now, with the structure that I had set up, the local men reported to the regional manager. The regional manager in turn reported to me out of the New York office, and these are all black individuals. Now, it was also their responsibility to engage themselves in civic community, uh, uh, uh, things that were going on. Again, I'm looking for identification in marketplace of everything about CBS, whether it's a civic or political, I want them to be involved. So that when the records were released, when the records came along, they would have entree in any door because of the past things they have done. Now I also found that in the past, when artists would come to town, CBS artists, and no tickets would be given to any black disk jockeys or even to any of the black retailers. And they had a responsibility that everything, that every artist that was on the CBS label, that came in that city, it is your responsibility to secure tickets and to invite your retailers and your radio station personnel. Again, we are trying to establish a much closer working relationship with them. I was really setting things up so when the product flow starts, we'd be able to go in immediately and start securing airplay. We wanted to lock up the marketplace completely, and I felt that the way to do it was to cover all of the bases. Now, from a national standpoint, the question comes up, working side by side with the pop promotion department, I asked the pop promotional department, the ideal situation is to cross a record over Top 40. You, national pop promotion manager, what is it that you need to cross my black artists over to Top 40? Well, I was told that give me a top five record, a number one record at black radio station, a number one record, a number five, within the top five, in all of the national publications, this is what they told me they needed. Also, give me a good consistent sales pattern. I gave them every bit of that. And then because of the racist nature at that particular time, they were hesitant about taking the record into Top 40 for whatever reason. Uh, possibly their resistance from a race, from a racial standpoint, and also maybe from the resistance of Top 40 radio. I don't know because I didn't pursue it any further at that particular time. My mission was to give them what they asked for, and I gave it to them, and in every instance, they failed to cross it over, in every instance.

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Well, yes, yes, I can. I can think of the very first record, it was a record that was recorded by the, by the O'Jays, "Backstabbers". And it was clear from the very beginning that this was a hit record. I mean, this was on the Philadelphia International Radio, this was one of the first records that Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff delivered to CBS. And this record became a number one record across the board throughout the entire country, but still the Top, the pop staff failed to cross this record over to, uh, to Top 40. Fortunately, the record went gold, but it could've gone platinum. When gold meaning that it sold a minimum, a minimum of one million units on the single. The album also went gold and it sold a minimum of 500,000 units. But as I said, it could've gone platinum, if it had crossed over. Now, mind you, mind you, the single and the album went gold just from black play only. I'm also inclined to believe that there were a lot of, uh, Top 40 buyers that purchased that record, purchased it because they had heard it played on black radio. They, just the buzz that goes around when a hit record is happening, it crosses over to that extent, but in terms of Top 40 radio, no, they didn't pick it up, they didn't play it, but it still went gold. And ideally, ideally, if the pop department had crossed it over, it would've gone much further. So that was, that was one example there. Now also during this particular time, along came, come this guy, uh, Larry Isaacson. And he came with this plan, this idea to Clive Davis concerning The Harvard Study. Now, I don't think that, that Clive Davis was really that concerned about the study itself. I feel that he knew the potentials of black music. I also feel that he had a very, very good, one of the best marketing men in the country at that particular time, and that was a fellow named Bruce Lundvall, who didn't see any color in records. He just saw good records. He just heard good music. He was colorblind. So he also saw the opportunity that this study would provide. Now what it would really do, it was just merely to document what was already believed. We knew what was happening in the marketplace. We knew the potentials of black music. We knew the importance of extending our hands and to black, to those small mom and pop retailers, as well as, as well as treating black artists as first class artists. The cocktail parties, the press, uh, the, the, the press conferences and things like that, which not had taken place in the past. So this Harvard study merely documented what was already believed. And I think that Clive Davis and Bruce Lundvall knew -- I certainly knew. Because this is all that I was about.

Now, in the overall scheme of things we're talking about breaking a black act, we're talking about penetrating the black music. Well, there are a number of things that must take place. Number one you've got to think in terms of, uh, of your audience and how you're going to reach your audience. Well, at that particular time there were only, we were very, very limited, very limited. We were limited in Billboard, just a few black acts would receive exposure through Billboard. We were limited in some of the other national white publications. But there was one TV show, "Soul Train," and in my opinion Don Cornelius and his show had a direct influence on breaking and exposing black acts. Once an act appeared on Don Cornelius's show, immediately the sales shot up. So, this is what the black youngsters were looking at. This is where they saw their favorite artists. So it would behoove any record company, once that record had been released, once it started showing some promise, to get that act on Don Cornelius's show for performance as quick as possible. Not only Don Cornelius's show, but then there were other things too. Essence Magazine was coming along at that particular time. Feature stories in Essence Magazine. The Johnson publications, Jet Magazine, the feature stories. So this is what we were looking for. Also, there was another magazine that was in existence at that particular time, which was based out on the West Coast. It was called Soul Magazine. So with the Don Cornelius "Soul Train" show, Soul Magazine, through Essence Magazine, through Jet Magazine, and then tie everything in with black radio, we were reaching the black market, so we couldn't lose. And that's exactly what we were doing.

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Not doing, during my tenure it got a little bit easier, just a little bit easier, but that resistance was still there. As a matter of fact even today, even today, through the 20, 20 years ago, I still think that there is somewhat of a resistance even here today. But yes it did let up, but not that much. There's not that many black acts that they allowed to get through. Uh, Clive Davis was jumping up and down. Bruce Lundvall was jumping up and down. They didn't understand it. Uh, Earth, Wind and Fire was an act that received a little bit of that Top 40 play but not as much as they should, because, because of the good music that they were doing at that particular time.

Tell me about Earth, Wind and Fire as an act.

As an act, uh, I would say that Earth, Wind and Fire was somewhat of the innovators. The genius, the genius of, uh, Maurice, he was, uh, he was a businessman and he also was a creative individual. I mean he, their live shows, it would just wear you out to see them perform, the things that they went through their on the stage. A lot of the shows we see here today is because of, they are set up the way they are because of the genius of Maurice White. The staging of the shows, of, uh, of Earth, Wind and Fire. Not only that, not only that, uh, at the grassroots level, again, the genius of Maurice White, he saw the importance of visiting all of the radio stations.