Talking about Sly, what you thought about him.

Sly's music to me, um, had a really fresh angle to it. It seemed to me that was if not the first, one of the first bands to really cross over and combine, um, a melting pot of cultures in, uh, in his music. You know, coming from the Bay Area, you know, they had, there was, they were just coming out of the hippie scene and there was, there was this freedom, and he wasn't inhibited by any, you know, there were no barriers in his music, just complete freedom, without losing one drop of soul. He was very soulful and funky and they, uh, they just had this freshness and this power in the music that really, that really attracted me. He was a great influence on me, I think.

It seems like that Quincy sort of like distilled a lot of what was happening in music into that album. What was his approach like for instance to…

Mmm. Well, Quincy's approach to ... um, that's kind of a hard question.

Let me ask you another question, more specifically about…

He did a lot of percussion. He's, sorry.

Michael is, um, Michael I would say is very percussion oriented, and uh, makes sense actually because he's been known to dance on occasion. And uh, it's all a little known fact that, um, he can play drums very well. I don't know how well he plays now, but I remember seeing him play drums, and I was quite surprised. But then, it makes sense, because, you know, the dance background. So he's very heavily rhythm oriented. And uh, I think he tends to base a lot of concepts starting from, uh, rhythm that he comes up with.

…

Yeah, he does. He's been known to, uh, he demonstrated that to Oprah once. You know, I'm not going to bother to duplicate that, but uh, there's a way that he, vocally

You have to go back to saying Michael.

Sorry man. There's a way that, uh, Michael, uh, conceptualizes rhythms, you know, vocally. And I think he demonstrated that once, uh, to Oprah. I won't bother to duplicate that demonstration, but uh, you know, he, he, uh, comes up with these drum and rhythm patterns vocally and he can emulate, uh, different, uh, percussive sounds. And it sounds really cool. And a lot of times they're used as part of the foundation of the song. And also his fingers, when they snap, they sound like claves a lot, because they're really crisp really crisp sound. And um, so he's just heavily percussive, percussion oriented.

… Do you remember much about that?

Oh, I remember it quite well. What would you like to know about it.

First of all, I need…

Don't stop 'til you get enough. Yeah, that little thing.

How did that come, in terms of the tune and the rhythms, how did that come ....

Well, I remember him calling me over to the house, saying that he needed help writing that song. Which I did, I sup-, I supplied the part in the middle that goes -- [plays]. That bit. And hearing it for the first time, I thought it was, uh, a pretty neat concept rhythmically. And he just, uh, he played what he had on tape, it was a bit of a kind of a demo. And uh, so I mean I was, and I just came up with that part, and then that was the end of the session. That was the end of writing session. Uh, some, some uh, a different set of circumstances, uh, happened after that, that I wasn't quite prepared for. At any rate, uh, I still am proud of that little section. And uh, I still think it's, uh, a great tune.

What set of circumstances.

Ohhh, nothing. Hey, hey! That's the other interview. Ahem!

One of the things that I need for you to characterize for me for the camera, one of the things that you had said about Michael, in terms of his approach to ...

Yeah, I, I think that Michael's approach to rhythm is very African. He, uh, he's got this, this deep, uh, you know, tribal thing in him. You know, an incredible amount of soul. You know, and it's uh, it's, it's very powerful. It seems like he only, you know, unleashes it when it's time to work on a record or something. But it's just so, uh, so deeply instilled in him, you know, and he's able to, he's able to get his ideas across relatively easy for someone who doesn't really play, um, any keyboard instruments. He's not known for playing, excuse me, any instruments. He's able to get his ideas across very well by vocalizing, uh, different rhythm parts, and uh, not just rhythm parts, but uh, harmonic parts, uh, and melodic parts, you know, string lines, horn lines, guitar parts, you know, he's very, uh, and so he's, uh, all of the, uh, elements, all of the rhythm, uh, elements -- let me see ... All of the, uh -- All of the basic rhythmic elements in a rhythm section, drums, bass guitar, uh, and any, any main keyboard parts he's able to, uh, to vocalize, with relative ease. Perhaps a bit easier than I was able to describe that.

Now, working with Quincy, how does he work as a producer? What is special, what is it that Quincy does that's special?

Well, there are a lot of special qualities about Quincy's producing. Uh, number one is that he is excellent, well, he knows exactly what to get for what situation. He makes everyone in the room feel comfortable as well as important. And he knows what to order for lunch. This man appreciates the art and the essence of a great meal. He knows that if you're fed well, you will play well. And uh, he takes that very seriously. We have shared some serious lunches and dinners. And uh, I'm very proud of that, very proud of that. And uh, he just, he brings out the best in you. He let's you be you, and uh, he never imposes his, his, uh, his authority or his experience on you necessarily. You become part of a whole new experience that he's, uh, he's definitely in control of. It just doesn't, it just doesn't ever feel like it. And he's absolutely wonderful to work with, for those reasons.

On "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" how did Quincy , with Michael? How did that …?

Well, I, I think the relationship in not only "Don't Stop" but for the whole record between Quincy and Michael was, uh, I think very smooth. It seemed smooth to me. Uh, it was, uh… oops, it was, I would say it was, uh… you okay? I would say it was, uh, basically equal amounts of input from both Michael and Quincy. It never seemed like, uh, really a tug of war. It just seemed like, uh, generally a fun experience for anyone.

So tell me about "I Can't Help It."

I can't help it. Well, uh, fine song, wasn't it. You know, that song was written by Stevie Wonder, and uh, because of my experience with him, because of my working with him, Quincy thought it would be nice if I, uh, were to spell out an arrangement for Michael's record. So I thought, great, we heard the, uh, we heard the demo of it. And I thought that, uh, originally would want it basically the same way we heard it from Stevie. And it was, uh, you know, really fast paced. Like, 1, 2, 3, 4. You know, that kind of a thing. It's all right. It had kind of a Latin feel. So I thought, I'll go in there. So Quincy heard it and he thought, ahhhh, no I don't think so. Maybe, let's kind of approach it differently. Slow it down a bit, and you know, make it a little sexier. So it comes out like -- That kind of thing. So after getting over the initial embarrassment, I now see what he meant. To create more of a sexy quality to Michael's image and to the music. So I think for those reasons, "Off The Wall" was a bit of a coming of age album for Michael. Because he, uh, Quincy brought those elements out. You know he wanted to present an older, bit more mature Michael, and wanted to kind of step away from the bubblegum image. So I think that worked.

Let's move on to "Thriller."

That came from a wacky British guy I know named Rodney Temperton. That was "Thriller" yes.

You had said ...

"Billie Jean" was one of the hippest, uh, concepts I ever heard Michael came up with. Oh, I think I remember what -- there was a

One of the things you said was one of the funkiest things.

It was definitely one of the funkiest things. It was like, you know -- [plays]. Something like that. Before, there was nothing like that -- Except for a song that I had worked with Donna Summer on that Quincy produced called "State of Independence," and it was written by John Anderson from Yes. And it had a similar bass part but it was faster. The bass part itself was faster. It was the same kind of half-time feel, but at the same time it was -- [plays]. You know, but it was -- [plays and snaps fingers]. That kind of feel. And uh, great song, big production. And I think possibly Michael might have been influenced by that. Uh, I don't want to get sued, but I think possibly he might have been influenced by that bass line, because if you slow it down and put it in another key, you'll get -- [plays]. And I remember hearing that in a demo form at Michael's house, and Quincy and I and Rod Temperton were there checking out possibilities for the new album, and I just remember thinking, man, that is the funkiest thing I've ever heard. And it's really raw. I do like Michael's demos, because they have this really raw edge to them. It's very exciting.

…

It was a pretty big album wasn't it.

Just musically, how did "Thriller", where do you think "Thriller" stands on a scale.

On a scale of as it relates to everything else? You mean ...? Well, it was an important album. I mean, the first time it was, that I know that I … the biggest selling artist at the time. And musically it was very, very strong.

What was different about it than what had come before? Especially, think about R and B, soul?

Well, from what I remember, keeping in mind now this is like, what, ten years later, and I'm that much older. Um, there didn't seem to be that much, you know, black music was going through a bit of a transition, from what I remember. There didn't seem to be very much out there, um, in the way of, uh, new music. And it seemed like a quieter period, and all of a sudden "Thriller" came out and blew everything else out of the box. And that was one of the things that helped it. There didn't seem to be a lot of competition. And um, Michael hadn't put anything out in a while. You know, this was eagerly anticipated. And uh, it came out and it didn't disappoint. You know, he was able to cover a lot of very definitive bases at the time. He even branched off into rock, you know, with "Beat It", and you had little duds like "Billie Jean" and, um, uh, "Human Nature." Very strong songs at the time. You know, it's, uh, they're still classics today.

How would you characterize Michael's growth "Off The Wall."

See in "Off The Wall" he was about 5-8, now he's like 5-10, you know, he's almost six feet. I would say that, uh, you know, he's matured. Um --

Who?

I would say that Michael… I would say that Michael has matured quite a bit musically from "Off the Wall" until now, in his songwriting. Because he didn't have very many songs on "Off The Wall" that he wrote. And over the course of the next several albums he was able to have more influence on the songwriting, to, you know, so, I think he's matured quite a bit as a songwriter. He continues to evolve, you know.