Okay, well like see I started with James I think in '65 and then, you know, you in later years you be hear, you will hear people say, one, he's, you know, he's saying well I want everything on the one, you know. And to me I looked at James on stage as not that vocalist, you know, that guy that stand there and croon to you and all that stuff, he was more of a, I guess in that music world they call hoofer, that dancer. And dancers dance to beats that's right on top of everything. A dancer is always on top. So that's what I equated the, on the one to mean but then again you hear the one two. You know like if you say, one, two, three, four [drums] all that is pop that, that first beat is right on time, right on top, like I say, after one, two, three, four comes one again and you're right on top of it. But that's the way I equated that with James though, you know.

Give me an example of what is not the one and then show me what the one is.

Well now, you, you, to me, I'm amazed, you know this is my perception of being on the one or what is not the one and two and four 'cause when you're playing the blues which I came up playing with Bobby Bland, you know you played the blues and, and they said if you played a 12 bar blues, you know, you start out like [drums] you know and then [drums] see and [drums] the, the back beat is, is the two, you know, and pop, [drums] and this, and then you know you just got to edge on the high hat but then, you know, but you add so much to it it's not so much as being one is not so much as being emphasized when you're playing other than playing with James Brown. With James Brown it had to be, that had to stand out, that one had to stand out where in if you're playing the blues, you play your turnarounds and your bridges a little different, you don't. But when you went into anything else like with James then you had to, you had to emphasize. He wanted to hear. He wanted to hear that because I still think out of his dancing he always listened in regards to what happen for that first beat there, that right on top of it, as long as you were on top of it, you know. He was doing it 'cause if you weren't on top where they live, he'd turn around and let you know that too, you know, come away you. But that's, that's basically, but that's my perception of it. Now I may, this is the way I see it, I can't explain how somebody else might see it.

James Brown just launch into what that sound was like.

Okay, you wanted, you wanted me to, to try and play, you want me to play like if I was playing with James, that one beat you were talking about. Well see now you want to make me sounded like I hum, you know, 'cause I, I have to hum that, I have to hum that part to get to it but I'll do like, you know.

With James Brown you had to be on the one.

Understandable, with James Brown you had to be, you had to be on the one. And that's what you would hear and when he said it, when he kicked it off like one, two, three, you say one, one, one, but you always, you always made it stand out stronger than anything else. And you just hit it and basically when you hit it, when you were playing he wanted to, you, you hit it so he could hear. And that's was, that's what that was. You just make that one stand out, you know, even if you're playing it from your sock cymbal you still make it sound [drums] make it come, it, it come out and the sock cymbal and the bass drum at the same time you're hitting it. [drums] You're making a sound, that's what you're doing, you know, it's coming out. That's, to me that's one.

Did it affect what everybody else in the band ended up doing, how they attacked ....?

Ah, when, when you played in James's band, you must understand, pardon me, the changes through the times how the things, how it changed.

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Yeah, when you, when you were in James's band there was always constant change, personnel change so you, you, you, there was routines to be done. James choreographed all of the routines in there but when the routines were done every time one came around there was a change somewhat and everybody, it was almost like what you call regimented like, like in the old regimented, ah, ah, army style, like you, the cadences when you moved everybody moved at a time and then they were, you had routines as they called, that's what you were doing and every time you hear that one regardless of what tune James was playing the routine was done in that sequence like that. You know you have to then again in the old band you had those changes, in the old band the old band to me was really regimented, I mean strictly regimented but then again that was a part of that era and then when you move to the next new batch of people that came along it changed somewhat for something else. You got another gear as you called it. And the, the more that you changed personnel the more gears you got, you understand? Do you quite understand what I'm saying?

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Okay, that's, that's what, that's what I'm talking about, you, the, the change in James Brown organization, that's what I'm saying.

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Okay now we're talking about change within James Brown's organization. Okay, when I joined James in '65, ah, there were four drummers, five drummers, four or five drummers on stage, yes. No one drummer played any more than one or two tunes. Some drummers didn't play at all when he was on stage they just played when the other part of the show was going. And that I couldn't understand but then again you have to understand the change. There is a little something James would hear something from each person that he hired especially in the rhythm section he would hear something from somebody else and regardless if he liked that little note or two or that lick or two he played, he hired that person for a little while. And then he'll get that, what he could get out of that then he'll move to the next person. And gradually as you do that you change. But what you're doing is, you are bringing fresh minds into that group and that's what he kept doing, bringing in fresh ideas because each guy that came in, in that troop regardless, James, James was, he used to be a drummer too, you know and he, you know, he, he would fool around a little, you know but then he can say, well, I hear this or I want you to play. He has heard some, something somewhere and he wants to try and perfect what he heard but he has a drummer that might come close to it or he hears something similar, he can let him, he'll work it for a while and then he'll use that and he'll move again. But then after he moves the change comes not only in the drummer but in the rhythm section because you go back to James, old James Brown and you hear slow tunes, you know you hear slower versions of tunes. You hear more structure that one, one, one lane that's like a two-lane road, you know. Then after that old group left the band that was a time, it was time to change. Then they say, well, golly, okay, everybody is leaving. The old band left James. So now what is he going to do? So then you had the group out of Cincinnati to come, that's where Bootsy came, why, boy. That was a bass player. I mean not, nobody else was not playing bass, that was a new idea. They had a new way of doing everything James did. That was the turn around for him. But when you get that, that's a fresh idea. So James changes along with the band changing and when that change came he shot him back up again. And that's, and that's what I meant by, by the change of the personnel because everybody that came through that group brought something to that band regardless of who you were you brought something there because he didn't hire you unless he heard something that he liked that you were doing even the horn men. And James is not a horn man, you know, but that's, that's basically what it was.

What did …

We talk about not only Bootsy but in James Brown band when the, when the changes was brought about, Bootsy, came to James, I'm trying to figure out how to say this to you. I'll put it in terms where people will understand, to me Bootsy…

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Okay, we were talking about Bootsy, Bootsy Collins, you know…

Okay, Bootsy Collins, you know, he, he, when he came to the group, first you must not just say Bootsy, you have to put his brother Phelps in there with him see because the guitar, Phelps was a guitar player, Bootsy was a bass player but see they complemented each other, you, you see what I'm saying. And then, then Bootsy's playing, man I have just never, I had never played with a bass player of that caliber. When you say funk and I don't even know how you define, define funk to tell you in my terms, I, I'm thinking for me now but when you say funk you be talking about how, man that can start playing and all you want to do is just get there and you hear so much stuff that he's playing, he takes what a lot of people do with one or two notes he take and put ten or twelve in there, man. I mean he's all over there. I mean he's just groovy, he's, you can sit on a pocket with him but then you have to think about Phelps back there with that rhythm with, with what Bootsy doing, complement him, then the drummer has to sit in that same pocket as they call it, with that rhythm section. I have to explain a little, a few things to you when I say pocket, to my knowledge of what a pocket is. When I started trying to play and when I try to play with a rhythm section, that's what we are a rhythm section and until you can get where you can sit down and think and play as one of the rhythm section, you're not quite that rhythm section I, I think, you know. Look at Basie's band for instance, you know that band, that rhythm section that he had was so tight and so together, you have to learn to play with each other. I'm not trying to outplay anybody else. The only thing I want to do is keep that heartbeat going as they call it, as long as I can keep that heartbeat going, the bass player or the guitar player or the horn player could do whatever he wants to do because he knows that that solid foundation is back there behind him an that rhythm section can get in that groove and you can't move it, you got to do, you got to things and when you're innovative, when that groove starts, you start hearing stuff and when you start hearing different things it makes you play differently. So for a "Sex Machine" you know when you did "Sex Machine" you know like that pattern it just sits and, and you sink into that pattern with that rhythm and it just, and it goes and, and that's, that's the best way I can explain it to you, you know, but you, you have to hear it to know exactly what I'm saying. But that, that Bootsy bought another, he and Phelps, I can't believe Phelps, they brought another movement, James Brown went into another gear whey they got that. I was the only left out of the old band and I possibly would have gone, I know I would have when everybody else left but I had a contract with James and I had to, you know, had to honor that contract. I had a contract with him and so I was there but I was thankful to be there with Bootsy. I, I learned a lot from those guys.

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Playing, playing with James required strict attention. As I said before, earlier, it was like regimented. You see that's where that dancer part came in. They weren't doing things, I started doing things with James Brown when I joined the group, when I started playing most of his stuff, his, his music, his part of the show. You see then you go back to the drummers that we had it came from five drummers to three drummers to two drummers and it stayed two drummers there until I left the group but there was a reason for two drummers and see there was no, no two guys played the same way and James may have had a different, he may have heard it different one night or hear it different and he would want somebody else to play it. But to play James's show I had gotten to the point with that group that I was the drummer that had to play his show only, I had to play his entire show. And when I did that James would be dancing, that's where I come back, come back to where I say was hoofing by the dancer. When James was dancing, James would make little moves and you could hear if you caught the show in person that you hit those, you, you hit them and as you keep playing the same patter but you his, his moves and make it, it was, hey, use it, dramatic, it made it spontaneous you know when you hit it people would look, wow, did you see that? He made that, how did you catch that? But you had to pay attention to him because he always challenged you to watch him. And sometimes I used to catch him off, that's a little, yes, I have caught James off, I have played, and you play his show. And that was one thing about it if you played it this way, if you start playing it one way, you play it that way don't change it unless he changes it. You don't change anything he changes it. And I played his show and I've made hits and he forgot them. He'd turn around and smile and he's back and come back to do it again and say, well, okay I missed it and I'll catch it now. But that's, you start, I started doing things like that with him.

What happened if you missed?

Okay, you said if I missed. I am not perfect and if I missed I don't like to say it like that, it was rather rare because it, it was, it was a job with me. It was, when I go on stage I go on stage with the same idea that he has, I'm going to do this show and I'm going to do it the best that I know how. I'm going to remember. I don't have time to worry about or watch what the audience or what the other part of the band is doing, I had to watch James Brown because to watch James Brown then you do James Brown's show that way. And when I do that show, like I would tell him all the time, I didn't, I didn't miss it. I know it. I know it because I have sit there and you play it long enough to know it. Now if you want to change please tell me and we'll do that but it's, it's just, but James had a thing about he'll fine people too, you know. Oh yeah he, he'd fine you if you missed, if you missed a note or a few other things.

We were talking about, well, that's like with James Brown you, time to me is very important I was taught to play it. I mean to play time and hold time like if you were going to do something different when you do something, you do that but as long as somebody is up there working you play time, you know that's like when the Ray Charles Band, if you ever paid any attention to Ray and that's today, now, it's such a habit with Ray when you see Ray go off, that's time, he, he's giving you all the time you need right there, you know, you know even though he's, he's precise in a lot of stuff. When you work with Bobby Bland, there was time but that's when I first started really knowing what good hard time meant, it meant holding everything you do regardless to what a person in front of you do like when with James when Maceo or some of those guys were playing solos, you know, if you listen to that horn, you, you'd know, you'd know where he's, you don't know where he's going but you hear him playing and he know if you keep everything right there as they say, if you keep your foot right on him he can constantly move and all the stuff that he's doing is, you make him play. A good rhythm section makes an artist work, you know, and you watch Ray or any of the groups that's, that's working. Even with James we've gotten into grooves where it's hard to turn them loose. And, and I, I literally mean that, you know you can play and people say, you get a high, I get a high from playing drums. I get a high from playing music. And you play and you get to grooving so good it's hard to turn, it's a scary feeling, it's hard to turn it loose. And guys will tell you man, you were groovin’, you grooved and that means you're sitting in a pocket and you sit or standing like a, a metronome or clock. And it just stays there and it's scary sometimes because you say, how can you groove so hard? And it's just, it's a good feeling. That's what it is really.

You want to do it that way? When do you want me to do it now?

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Okay, I played the, the Regal Theater and it was the last show and there was still gobs of peop… oodles of people outside waiting to get in. They couldn't get in and the last show, we finished the last show. They broke the doors down. They demanded another show. And we had to do another show. I had never seen that before but I mean it was just, they just rushed the door and tore it down and they wanted another show and you did it. It was just that hot, you know.