And uh, by the time Mighty Clouds of Joy came on, they were like climbing the rafters and screaming and yelling, and I thought, my God, now that's an experience, and that to me is what disco is all about.

It started out as underground music. It started out as the gay.

But see, but see, that's the thing, and that's what amazed me so much about it. Why do gay people…

One of the puzzling things, uh, for me was, and Fire Island, it was basically white gays. And I said well why are they so different than everybody else. I mean they're willing to try something new, to experiment. Where I find most people in a dance club, or even before there were dance clubs, people were very self-conscious. And if they think people are staring at them, they're intimidated. But they didn't care, they were there for the music, and they were going to dance and have a good time, and I said, well, that's the place for me.

There were a lot of good dance places like the Loft.

Well, they were a little, a couple of years later. They weren't like in '72 and '73

What was happening in '72, '73.

Well, guys weren't allowed to dance together, so a girl was very popular, because, you know, one girl, four guys could dance on the floor. So the girls, I mean you could see, some of the girls weren't nothing to look at, but boy they were popular when it came to dancing. Well, c'mon honey... Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but it's so funny. God, some of these girls, I'm telling you, they'd drag them there just so they could dance. It was really funny.

Do you remember the names of some of these places.

Well, in fact I went out to East Hampton one time, and uh, there was a place called the Millstone. And that was the time when line dancing was very popular. But again there had to be a girl in the line. And again, it was a jukebox, but they started playing the dance versions, and in the beginning I was the only one doing them. So it was like three or four years before everyone else started getting into it.

Do you remember the Hustle?

Sure.

Tell me about that.

In fact, uh, I'm trying to think of the fellow's name now, David Todd. David Todd was a promotion man, dance promotion man for RCA. And uh, I had done work for Van McCoy, and he was the one that came up with that name called The Hustle. It was just the form of a dance, and he'd called it The Hustle, but David is the one who really named it. And Van liked the name so much that he called his song that he called his song "The Hustle."

And did it go over big?

Oh, it sure did. [sings] Great song, it was a big pop hit. But that's what I mean about music. In those days you were making music that you could dance to, but it was first music. It wasn't first dance music, it was music that you could move to.

The Philadelphia sound, how was that for you?

Well, the Philadelphia sound to me, uh, I got in there rather late, when you think of Philadelphia. You think of Philadelphia, you think of it as Cameo Parkway days, back in the old days of Bobby Rydell and Frankie Avalon, and Didi Sharpe, who eventually married Kenny Gamble. Uh, that was in the '50s. And then during that time, it grew more into soul music rather than the pop. And uh, my time down there started in '73. And at that time they were doing some of the best soul records I've ever heard in my life. Great ballads. I mean, Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff are in touch with everybody. Their music and the words just seemed to be a marriage made in heaven. And part of it is the delivery of these things. Uh, the way they were put together. The way these same musicians played on thousands of records. We're taking Gamble and Huff as the Philadelphia sound, but we can't exclude the Spinners, we can't exclude Jerry Butler, we can't exclude, uh, the Stylistics. And they were all on different labels. And most people who even lived in Philadelphia never knew that all these great things were done in one studio, and that's Sigma Sound studios. And uh, I was lucky enough to be there early enough to see how a lot of these things were cut. And like I said, they were basically the same musicians. You had the rhythm section of Philadelphia, which is Baker, Harris and Young, meaning Ron Baker on bass, Norman Harris on guitar, and Earl Young on drums. And that was like the nucleus of all the great Philly records, those three guys.

You had mentioned something to me. That their rhythm wasn't exactly …

You know people always try to define the Philadelphia sound. And they always say it was either glycerine soul, or it was very much orchestrated. But that wasn't Philadelphia sound. The Philadelphia sound was a feeling right from the very beginning. It wasn't exactly on time, what we call today on time, where the music, where it's created by computers now, it's quantized, or it's like, there's abso-, it's a machine. There's no human quality to it. It's a machine. But in those days, the three of them would, the groove would just sort of fall into place. But it was human. And for some reason that human quality would relate in the music, when you add, when you added the piano, you added Vince on vibes, uh, the string players. I mean it would have an emotional appeal and a feeling that you couldn't describe. Now if you took a metronome and played against those songs, it would start off one tempo at the beginning, and end up at another. But yet it wasn't considered not in time, because it was a piece of art.

Tell me how disco music began to change.

Uh, I find that, like I said, it started out with soul music. Uh, then music started to change, you started to feel the European influence. Their influence was usually more mechanical. It lacked the soul. Uh, I'm not going to try to take it away from European records, because I love them. They're very creative. But they don't have that inner feeling in them. They just don't, they just don't have it. They don't like to use drum fills, they don't use turnarounds. So I mean a verse and a chorus, a verse and a chorus is all the same drum pattern. So there's no, what I call the soul, that little something that sets up the next piece.

Uh, I first Jacques Morali at Sigma Sound studios in Philadelphia. I used to be there every night in Studio A. And one night Jacques was there doing Brazil, the Ritchie Family. And he was doing it downstairs in B. And he was not strange, he was very protective of his music and he was afraid other people hearing it, they would steal from him. So you know they were closed sessions, and no one's allowed here. And even when I was sitting in the lobby, the general manager asked me to go upstairs because I could hear the music coming through the door. Fine. Uh, I could never understand that. And even when he created, he wanted to create this group primarily for gay people. Uh, what he did was he had this idea to take what they call the uniform, or the outfit of the Village. You'd see construction workers, you'd see guys in leather. I've never seen the Indian, but I haven't been all over the Village either. But you would see the telephone man, and I mean things like that. And uh, I thought, my God, that's a strange idea. But obviously it wasn't that strange because as it turned out the whole world loved the Village People. But Jacques really created it for the gay people, because he really wanted to be loved by the gay people. He wanted to be loved by the gay people. He wanted music just for them.

Tell me the whole story. When they first came to Philly how were they received by the musicians?

Okay. When Jacques Morali first came to Philly, I believe he tried to book the musicians and he could not get them. And what happened was he got to talk to Harry -- oh my God. Can we stop a minute? How can I forget Harry's name? My God, this is really sick.

When Jacques first came to Philadelphia, uh, I believe he tried to book time in the studio and the musicians, and of course, they didn't know him from Adam. So, uh, he talked to the general manager who has since passed away, Harry Chipitz, who was everybody's friend and he tried to put people together. And uh, I believe Harry hooked Jacques up with Richard Rome, who was an arranger. So naturally it was Richard's session, so all the guys showed up. And then they saw Jacques Morali and, ahem, excuse me, they wondered, what is this? You know, because he would, everything's the French, and he'd be very dramatic. And no, no, I don't like it, I want you to play with more feel. I mean he was un-, unbelievable. And finally Baker said, man, I ain't playing this, well, he used a few words I can't say. But he said, I ain't gonna play this stuff, man, I'm leaving. No, no, no, you cannot leave, you cannot leave. He said, well -- he goes, I give you 500 dollars. He goes, I'll stay. So he walked back in here, and he was smiling away. And so I know Earl said to him, he said Baker how come you're still here? And he said, hey man the guy gave me 500 dollars, I ain't leaving. And as it turned out, that's how "Brazil" was created. But they never had that same group together for the following songs. He just, you know, Baker just wouldn't do it.

No, in fact, uh, I was talking to him one day about, I said, Jacques, I mean why are you so closed in Philadelphia. I mean, you know, I can't say hello. And he goes, everybody steals. I mean Gambles and Huff, they steals everything from me. I said, okay. You know he was lousy getting me to do that. Everybody used to laugh when I do that. They say, oh God, you sound just like -- is this camera still rolling. Oh God, okay. There was one day it was, I'm walking in New York, all of a sudden I hear [NOISES]. I thought, what the hell is going on, I thought, somebody is shooting things. It was Jacques across the street going, Tom! Tom! Tom! And I'm hearing -- [NOISES] -- you know when you hear it off the building -- Tom! Tom! Well, shooting. And it's Jacques.

Uh, one of the projects that I did for Gamble and Huff was the Philadelphia classics. And I think that by the, when I started working on that project, I think Gamble and Huff both realized that dance music was viable. There were sales there. And I approached them with the idea of doing the Philadelphia classics, meaning dance classics, but they were also popular records. Uh, the first song I wanted to do was "Love Is The Message." And he said, it wasn't a hit. And I said, but it's what is called the masterpiece of dance music. I mean, it's like dance music and classical music married together in a form where it's absolutely beautiful. It's not necessarily a commercial record, but it's a symphony. It's the masterpiece. It's, you know, the big Kahuna. I mean there's just nothing greater than "Love Is The Message." And I said, boy, I'm getting my name on that record, that's going to be something, because that's the best record I ever did, I would feel very proud. And it was exciting going in there and listening to parts of it they never used. They never used the girls singing, the Three Degrees. I thought, oh, this is great. And the part I always liked, which is toward the end, where the strings kept playing this pad going back and forth, and it was only a little piano thing in there. And I said, I gotta get Huff over here to play the keyboards again. And uh, I called him up. He was over at his studio, which is 309, which is where Philadelphia International is. And he was producing the Jacksons then. This is when Michael was still with them. And I said, Huff, can you come over? I really need like a piano overdub on this. No, I don't think it needs it. And I says, no, you're right, well, just try it, you know? And uh, he said, okay. So I said, Arthur, please unscrew the record light, because I don't want him to know I'm recording. I just sensed this was going to happen. I just knew something was going to happen. And he come over, and I said, well, Huff, why don't you just run it down a little bit. He said, don't record me. I said, you got it. So, sure enough, one take Huff, we're playing the section, and he's just playing along, just grooving with it. And he goes, I really think, I don't really think it needs it. And I said, you know, you're absolutely right, it doesn't. And then by the time it came out, he didn't realize that we had recorded it. Because he thought he didn't record it, so he thought that was on the original. It was very funny. And everybody says, why didn't they use that in the first place. I say, I don't know.

One of the things I felt Philadelphia always got the rotten end of the stick on was the sound. Uh, the Motown sound, that was great. All the same musicians playing on the records. But look at Philadelphia. It wasn't on the same label. You had, you had, uh, the Stylistics on Avco, you had the Spinners on Atlantic, you had Jerry Butler on Mercury. Uh, Gamble and Huff had their groups on PIR. But look at, Atlantic Starr on A and M. I mean if you could lump them all together and realize that this is all the same musicians playing the tracks, meaning, they'd have a lead singer, whoever it is, from Jerry Butler to even Dusty Springfield. But the same musicians were playing on all those records. And I felt the Philadelphia sound was just as important if not more so than Motown. I mean I really believe that, being a part of it. Uh, like when you mentioned "Love Sensation." Uh, Lolita happens to be one of my favorite singers.

Stop. Just say "Love Sensation."

Okay. All right, "Love Sensation," Lolita Holloway. Great girl, Miss Emotion herself, uh, Dan, uh Hartman, who's no longer with us, wrote that specifically for Lolita Holloway. And he also produced it. He came down to Philadelphia, used the boys, the family as they were called. Cut it. I mean it was done in three or four days. I ended up mixing it. And it did very well dancewise, but for some reason we couldn't cross it over. That was a record on Salsoul. We could not cross it over white, because you still have that stigma. You know, black artist, black radio. So much for Nat King Cole. But I mean, I'm being funny now, but it, it, it's sad, you know, if you're white, you have to break white, and if you're black you break black. That was then. Uh, and it's amazing, that song has turned out to be the most sampled record of all times, from "Good Vibrations" Marky Mark. I mean, they go on and on and on. There are so many songs that sample that version of "Love Sensation" that create a new song. And it's mainly because of Lolita's voice. It's absolutely amazing.