TELL ME ABOUT YOUR STORY DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. WHAT DID YOU DO DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR?

I was just a soldier, a Major in the Army.

WHERE DID YOU FIGHT?

In the northwest, near the Lake of Ilmen, near Pskov.

CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT WHAT GERMAN UNITS WERE YOU FIGHTING? WHAT WAS THE SITUATION IN THE FRONT?

Yes, the 64th German Army, it was, 64th German Army. And, all right... well we started we started during in August, we have been ordered, unit has been transferred from the Central Front, because of the German attack on Leningrad, which had to be stopped. So our 34th Army was sent in to cut the German army... which were going to Leningrad. It was just a movement like this to do. But of course the Germans were in '41 much stronger than we had been because of their attack, their attack that destroyed all of airplanes just on the ground. So we had no airplanes in '41. In our section of the Front. And the German aviation was very strong of course, so it was difficult to fly it then. Still we fought of course, it was necessary to fight.

TELL ME WHAT, AT THE SAME TIME WAS HAPPENING TO YOUR FAMILY?

What?

WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE SAME TIME TO YOUR FAMILY?

Excuse me?

WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO YOUR FAMILY AT THE SAME TIME?

Oh, my family. You see, I was for a short time on the Central Front. My first battle was in June of '41, I just telephoned to my office that I'm going away to the Front. So I — then I for a short time I came back to Moscow for a few days just to send my wife and my son away to Siberia, as far away as possible from the Front. My mother unfortunately was in Leningrad. She died from hunger during the blockade in Leningrad. She didn't want to part with Leningrad. But of course that was a terrible war and it affected in one way or in another way, every family in our country. But we had to win -- we had to fight them to win.

YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW THE STATISTICS.

Excuse me?

YOU KNOW THE STATISTICS. CAN YOU TELL ME THE STATISTICS IN TERMS OF HOW THE SOVIET UNION WAS AFFECTED BY THE SECOND WORLD WAR? WHAT WERE THE NUMBERS OF THE PEOPLE AFFECTED? HOW MANY PEOPLE WERE FIGHTING? HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED?

Well, I think that well at least there are figured -- the official figure that 20 millions dead. We had 20 millions dead. Millions dead. And the fighting, well I believe, I don't remember the exact figures, but I think about 10 millions people were affected — by fighting during World War. It was a terrible war. You Americans were happy and not to be in Europe during this time, but behind the ocean. At the time it was very good stronghold, America.

TELL ME ABOUT BATTLE. TO WHAT EXTENT WERE YOU AWARE WHEN YOU WERE AT THE FRONT OF THE ALLIANCE WITH THE WEST? WHAT WERE YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT IT?

Well, you see, we had this strong — in the Army, we had a strong feeling, also among the partisans, we had a strong feeling that we are brothers in arms, in arms with the Americans. You know, I remember just two or three days after Pearl Harbor, I somewhere in the forests near the Ilmen Sea, which is in the far east of European Russia, I remember a young lieutenant who commandeered a battery of artillery, and he was he was commanding, you know, like they do, "For Moscow, fire!," "For Leningrad, fire!" and he was commanding his battery "For Pearl Harbor, fire!".

HOW DID YOU FEEL AFTER THE VICTORY ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE... AGAIN WITH THE WEST, THE AMERICANS?

Well, everybody feels fine. Of course — who remained, everybody who remained. I was in hospital then. During the victory. It was a the day we never forget, you know, very cheer. We have a song, "it was a day of joy and tears," because of the victims who were gone, of course. This was a very — just a terrible war for our country. You see a great part of European Russia was in ruins. I remember a big village where I stayed during the German offensive in '41, and which was freed in '43, when we came back it was in winter. I was of course with my carto, you know, with my geographic map, excuse me, map, with my map I was looking for this village, I couldn't find it. It was in the snow. There was the snow. The village was absolutely destroyed. Even the chimneys, which usually remained, were destroyed by the Germans when they left from there. So it was really ruins, ruins everywhere. So it was a victory with joy, with great joy and with tears, in everybody eyes. Everybody's eyes. Excuse me. Excuse my bad English, my poor English. You see I picked it up being a press correspondent in London in the '30s.

HOW CAN YOU... CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE — CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE SITUATION IN WHICH YOU FIRST HEARD ABOUT HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI?

About?

HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI.

Well, it was in August of course of '45. On the — Not everybody understood the real meaning of Hiroshima. But it made a certain impression, of course. Also I must say that the our American friends were very, very energetic about making impressions, after Hiroshima. You know when we journalists came to their first assembly of the General Assembly of the United Nations, it was in the autumn of '46, to New York, the first thing our American hosts did show us was the picture of Bikini, a picture of Bikini, and everybody was very interested it if it made a great enough impression on us, on the journalists -- especially on the Soviet journalists. You see?

WHAT KIND OF IMPRESSION DID IT MAKE ON YOU?

Well, you know, when we mentioned--I mentioned just casually to a friend of mine first--I'd say a democrat, and a liberal democrat by your standards--I ask him...he asked me about Hiroshima and the atomic bomb, and after a few minutes I told him, well you must not think that you will be the only possessors of atomic energy on top of the atomic bomb. So he told me, "Oh no, no, no," he was very, very sure about it, "Oh no, no, no, no. You won't have the atomic energy — you will perhaps have atomic energy in 20 or 30 years. Not earlier. It is too complicated for you. And if you have the atomic energy it will break your back — the backbone of your industry." Well, of course, we had it in a few years. This is very general — well, a very general mistake everybody is making about our country.

COME BACK TO THE THINKING ABOUT THE BOMB AT HIROSHIMA. I KNOW THAT IT'S VERY HARD TO SEPARATE THE THINKING OF TODAY ABOUT HIROSHIMA THAN THE THINKING THEN ABOUT HIROSHIMA. I THINK AT THAT TIME IT WAS AMONG OTHER THINGS, I THINK IT WAS SAVING ALLIES LIVES, POSSIBLY FOR SAVING RUSSIAN LIFE, RUSSIAN LIVES. SO CAN YOU SORT OF TRY TO REMEMBER THE MIXTURE OF EMOTIONS?

Well, you see, it is a long time ago, so we did not have all the facts over then. We didn't have all the facts. But it was considered--the feeling if I remember, was that anyway, we didn't know then the scale of the destructions over there, but we thought that it was just not very necessary. You remember that the Russian army was already fighting by then. It was it was Hiroshima was — I am wrong here perhaps... It was a matter of days, anyway. It was a matter of days.

HIROSHIMA WAS 6TH, I THINK THE RUSSIAN ARMY MOVED ON THE 8TH.

Yes, it was a matter of days, but we knew of course in the army the country that we are going to start a war with Japan, and that we will just crush the Japanese army on the continent. And so the first feeling was probably that it was not very necessary, to bomb a town, a civil town in Japan. Although they didn't know of course the scale of the destructions then, just the first impression.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR ARRIVAL IN NEW YORK. WAS IT THE FIRST TRIP THAT YOU MADE TO NEW YORK?

To the United States?

YES.

In '46, well to New York, yes, it was probably the first trip. We — I had a... quite a funny trip in '34 on an icebreaker, which... called Krasin which started from Leningrad through the Atlantic Ocean, and the Pacific Ocean, to the Bering Sea, and farther on north. Just to save some people of ours which were stranded with their steamship called Chelyuskin in the North Sea--in the west from the Bering Sea. And they had to be saved, about more than a hundred people among them some women and children, and they had to be saved so their country did send the airplanes. There were no helicopters by then. Just airplanes, but it was quite a difficult chore for airplanes to go on the ice, you know, to...

LAND ON THE ICE.

Land on the ice. And so that an icebreaker was sent. The only one we had then who was equipped enough for this heavy ice. It had to be sent from Leningrad through two oceans. Of course now we have enough icebreakers in the Far East too, not only in Leningrad. But this —

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FIRST IMPRESSION OF AMERICA AFTER THE WAR?

Well, the first impression was looking at America because we went from the — from Mexico over there, just near the towns so that you could see something of America. And we landed in, just to fuel, in Vancouver then. And we saw a little of Canada. And just caught a glimpse of America by then. My first impression of it was really in '46. In '46 coming to New York. And it was an impression of very mixed feelings. You see, Europe was in ruins by then. In ruin, our country was absolutely in ruins, Europe was not in ruins, but very hungry, very--I was before going to America I was three months in France. In France at their peace conference of '46. France was you couldn't see ruins in France by then. There were little ruins but they were quite hungry by then, and the Frenchmen were of course poorly clothed. They had very little things to eat. I believe, I remember of course, the French women they like they know the mode and "le mode" and so on. And le mode by then was shoes from...from strings. From strings, done quite nicely. You know, something green strings, sometimes gray, sometimes the green, the blue strings, but just strings on bare feet you know. And all the French ladies at the peace conference were...about having these la mode shoes a la mode. So Europe was really very, very destroyed, very poor after this war. And suddenly we saw America, America with it's skyscrapers and everybody celebrating of course, the victory. And the people was very friendly, you know. I was still on my crutches by then. After being wounded the second time, at the Front. I was for five years on crutches. And you know, people — because I was on crutches I had my stripes over here. And just people accosting me in the streets, saying "Hey soldier! I never saw such stripes, from where do you come?" So I told them I come from the Russian front. And everybody wanted to "Well buddy, let's go to this place and we will have something to drink to the victory." And of course, being on my crutches I couldn't drink much you know back then. So I just always took one glass of whiskey and I give this nice gentleman who asked me another glass of whiskey. And then usually the bartender told us, "Oh, you are both soldiers so let us have on the house. This is on the house." I had a third glass of whiskey and no more. Because you cannot have much whiskey when you are on crutches, you will just fall down, you know. But everybody was really very, very friendly, and it was still the feeling of — not the feeling, which is now, of course - the feeling of being brothers in arms, you know. Even just with everybody in the street you know. And — at the General Assembly among journalists too in '46. Not in '47 anymore, but in '46, still...

TELL ME HOW YOU LEARNED, AND WHAT WAS THE EXTENT THAT YOU KNEW THE OPINIONS OF THE SOVIET DELEGATION TO THE UN ABOUT THE BARUCH PLAN?

Well, the first thing I knew from the American papers of the Baruch plan. And then somebody showed me once, Mr. Baruch, on the General Assembly. It was then now not on this big building on the East River. It was--this big building did not exist. It was -- it started at Flushing Meadows, I believe. And later on it continued at Lake Success. And once Bernard Baruch appeared over there, a very... a very impressive figure. He was high and lean, he had white hairs like I have now. And he was considered a wizard of course, by the American person. Of course, it was the general feeling I believe in America. He was a clever person, but he must have been clever to have accumulated all his millions, on the... But I don't think he was wise.

DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM, DID YOU HAVE A CHANCE?

No, no, they just showed me, he went by, this impressive figure.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT HIS PROPOSAL.

Well, I felt they were unrealistic. Unrealistic because we will never accept the like he told this an authority, international authority, I believe it was called. It was called an authority. Something like an authority over the — all the atomic plants, you know, all over the world. We just wouldn't accept the American authority over our plants. It was unrealistic.

WHY?

Well, you see it is a long story. It is a long story. From 1917 we were considered by the West as an... illegitimate child. That such a... Also you had your own revolution once, and it was also a revolution, which was conducted against owners. You had your life... live people who were owners of the plantations, and of the people who worked on the plantations. So you had your revolution. But when we had our revolution, also against owners, but against owners of banks, plants, and great territories of land, you know... it was considered something illegitimate, something evil. We were considered a country of evil, until 14 foreign countries, America among them, the United States did send their arms and their troops to fight the Red Army, the Russian Red Army. But of course, when such a people -- Russia you know, is not Grenada, and it's very difficult to cope with such a country, and with a people who is just...just wants to be free.

LET'S COME BACK TO THE BARUCH PLAN. IF YOU CAN TRY AND REMEMBER SOME DETAIL OF THE MAIN OBJECTION OF THE SOVIET DELEGATION.

The main objection was that we wanted just the, excuse me, the atomic bomb annihilated absolutely, and not allowed to be produced anymore. This was the proposal which was made in '46 by the Soviet delegation at the General Assembly of the United Nations. And of course the main... the main opposition to the Baruch Plan was that it was not only making the atomic bomb legitimate, but also taking it under the control of an international body, which should govern all atomic plants all over the world. Which was, of course, absolutely unrealistic and impossible you know, to agree with for us.

DO YOU—

It meant that the United States would be the owner of the world, shall I say, of the whole world because this atomic energy after all is the energy of the future, and who controls the atomic energy if any country should control it all alone, all atomic energy over the world, it means it should have control over the world. We couldn't agree to this.

WHEN THE BARUCH PLAN ESSENTIALLY COLLAPSED.

Well, I think that was really lost opportunity somehow. Because at the time, the United States did have only a few bombs, one or two after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Also one or two bombs could be produced during a whole year. We didn't have any bombs that were then. And I think that at the time there could have been a sort of agreement about atomic energy could have been done. I think in the sense of annihilating the atomic weapons.

CAN YOU THINK ABOUT THE FRAMEWORK FOR THIS KIND OF AGREEMENT. IF ONE HAD TO SAY THE PRINCIPLES BY WHICH THIS KIND OF AGREEMENT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED, SHOULD HAVE BEEN X, Y. IS THERE...

It is very difficult for me to say it. I'm not so clever as Bernard Baruch. But probably there could have been a certain agreement, but on the basis of annihilating all atomic weapons. Also hydrogen weapons, which came later on, of course.

DO YOU REMEMBER THE SITUATION OF THE VOTING FOR THE BARUCH PLAN? CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE VOTE?

The vote was taken only in the Commission, I believe. There was an atomic energy commission builded by the General Assembly. And the vote was not taken in the Assembly itself, not in the Assembly itself. It was somehow taken in the Commission. Usually when there was a strong opposition and you know it, in the United Nations then nothing happens, just nothing happens, if there is a strong enough opposition there. Also this is quite wise, you know, that nothing happens when there is a strong opposition. By the time we were in the minority, small minority, in the United Nations. And once a friend of mine, an American journalist told me, he was very triumphant when something of American proposals, which were opposed by the Soviet Union were taken by the General Assembly. And I was something getting angry, so I told him "Look here, there may come a day when you will be in the minority in the General Assembly." He told me, "Oh never." And of course, I remember it now, you know, this. And still if the United States is opposed to something now, nothing comes out of a resolution of the General Assembly. It is why this...the Council is... this Council of Five is built... Council of Eleven, I believe, but five votes are necessary to make a resolution be a resolution, and not just words.