So you were talking about quality control, people like Maxine Powell and Charlie Atkins and Maurice King. Let's talk about the evolution of your dance steps in the early days.

That was on "C'mon." There was a part in "C'mon" near the end, as Richard said, "I'm getting tired, I'm getting tired," and we were… and we would shake the shoulders and the audience would go wild. That was about as good as it would get with the Distants, as far as the dancing was concerned, because primarily we would just stand there and sing --

Can I ask you just to start that story again, and say, kind of get us situated and say, when I was with the Distants?

In the early days when uh, it was Otis Williams and the Distants, and this was much before the Temps, we were noted for just primarily singing. We would stand there and sing you into the ground. But as far as the dance steps, we were not into all that much, you know, choreography. When we had our little regional hit, "C'mon," there was a segment in there that Richard would say, "I'm getting tired, I'm getting tired"… and so we would shake our shoulders and the audience would go wild. That was as good as it would get as far as the Distants. But when we evolved to become the Temptations, when Paul Williams joined the group, now Paul was always noted for, not only a helluva singer but a showman. So when we would rehearse and …, and he would say, you just can't stand, you can't stand there, we've got to sing. We have to sell sex. Women love that. Now my middle name has always been Wallflower, because, I, Eddie Kendricks and myself, we would not dance. That's, dance, man, you better get out of my face I can't. He said, yes, you can. So he encouraged us. And little by little, you know, mmm, not bad. And then we would work it out in some of those little clubs that we would play in Detroit and the people would go crazy. I'd say, oh, we got something here Paul. So Paul was very good at starting the group for the choreography and really setting us on the road for being noted for the moves that we would do. But as time would have it and once we started getting recognized more and more and started having hits. We were in D.C. at the Howard Theater, and Charlie Atkins was there, I forgot with what act. Because when I first saw his work, he was with, uh, the Cadillacs. And I didn't know that it was Charlie's work, but the Cadillacs came to the Fox Theater and messed the place up. Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers, they had to tell jokes to cool the audience down to let Frankie and them come on because the Cadillacs just tore the place up. I mean they danced, and at that time they had biggy suits that would shake when they'd move, and Paul, that flash dance. That's what I'm going to do. So we found that it was Charlie Atkins. So we were at the Uptown, I mean we were at the Howard in D.C., and uh, he had heard about us and we said, man we would love for you to show us some of that stuff. So he took us downstairs underneath the stage, uh, at Howard, and he showed us a little slick move on "The Way You Do The Things You Do," and we fell out. But we never did get a chance to finish it because, uh, time was limited, we were going, he was moving and what have. So little did know in 1966 when Berry started Artist Development, and Harvey went and got Charlie, that's when it started becoming more of a regular thing. And he said on many occasions, and he said that, uh, taught us about show business and would tell us all kind of things about how to be a very good act in the business. And he started refining what Paul had already started us to doing, because we, um, started playing more plush kind of clubs, Club Venus in Baltimore. And then, uh, Berry hired a young man by the name of Shelly Berger, who had big visions, I guess even bigger than what we thought and Berry as well. And uh, that's when he started hearing Motown acts would start doing, would be into specials, and the Copacabanas and Las Vegas, which we had always wanted to play those kind of rooms and what have you, but uh, you know, we just were doing what we were noted for. And then when Shelly came on and started engineering us to doing the Ed Sullivan shows, and um, certain shows that would really take us from the, uh, R and B thing which we were noted for and crossing us over for more universal kind of appeal, uh, Charlie really started turning up the heat on as far as polishing us and spending more time in artist development, because, uh, it got to the point that we would be there so much that, man we were getting tired of looking at each other. But it was worth it, because they were grooming us for the real big stage, the Copacabanas, the Las Vegas, the Atlantic Cities and what have you.

He worked together with Berry, he would spend time with you individually and also as

That's true.

Where would that take place? That was across from Hitsville?

That was across, yeah Berry had one, two three, about four buildings on one side of West Grand Boulevard, and then he bought another building across the street from Motown which was where, uh, Artist Development, and uh, in the back of this building was a big spacious, um, like, um, not auditorium, but it was kind of like a hall, and mirrors it was installed. And uh, a stretch bar and all that. And then there was a little section where we would go after Charlie would finish with as far as the choreography was concerned and we would spend time with Maurice King and Johnny Allen and Harvey Fuquar going over the vocals for like "Swanee River" and "Laura." [sings] "Then you see Laura on a train, da-da-da-da." Teaching us modern harmony, all those kind of songs, which was very challenging, which we loved because, you know, we wanted to be noted for not being pigeonholed, you know, not just for "The Way You Do The Thing", you're doing "My Girl" whereas, they could say oh the Temps can sing anything, because later on that's what it evolved to because we started it doing so that, uh, Motown came up with the idea of doing a "Mellow Moods" which really enhanced our overall packaging. Because we would take from "Mellow Moods" the "Hello Young Lovers", the "Impossible Dreams", the "For Once In My Lifes," and what have you and we would incorporate that into our show which gave us a much broader appeal. And uh, I'm glad, like I said, I believe that's why we're around today, because we were not pigeonholed for R and B singers.

Was there any concern about -- first you should explain what "In A Mellow Mood" was at that time. Beginning to with Shelly and Berry's efforts beginning to take you to a different level, and also can you talk about the context at that time. Crossing over was not looked down upon the way it might be seen today.

I think by and large, see, "Mellow Moods" was one of those kind of albums where we had to be taught to sing correct harmony. You know the "My Girls" and what have you, which were right voicing and what have you, but we were stepping into another element whereas, uh, getting us groomed for those kind of rooms and what have you, Motown, Shelly, Berry, they wanted us to do another kind of packaging as far as our recording was concerned. And uh, uh, Frank Wilson and Jeffrey Bourne were very intuitive enough to select the right kind of songs to make the "Mellow Moods" album a very notable album. You know, tunes like "Impossible Dream", "Hello Young Lovers," "For Once In My Life," uh, "That's Life," you know, "Somewhere." So all those songs, uh, were recorded out in L.A. with big band arrangements, you know, the Oliver Nelsons and the Don Costas, and uh, the H.B. Barnum, you know, full-bodied blown up arrangements. Then they would come and send all those, uh, tapes back to L.A., and we would get, I mean back to Detroit, and then Maurice King would take us aside and song by song, he would voice each one. And uh, but it was all with the purpose of getting us ready for, like I said, the Ed Sullivans and the Copacabanas and just, uh, the TCBs, because we did, uh, um, "For Once In My Life" on TCB, and Paul did such a great job so that, uh, you know, when we played for Copacabana it moved Adam Clayton Powell to tears because of Paul was just that kind of singer that he could touch the human emotions so that not only Adam Clayton Powell as we were singing, I could stand there, and the Copa wasn't that big so you could really see right up on the audience, and you could see a lot of people, tears welling up in their eyes. So, you know it was very worthwhile, you know, doing those kind of things, because it took us a notch above the rest of the groups, and uh, I'm just glad.

Charlie Atkins is still a taskmaster. He would work you so that you would want to, oh no, not want, in fact I did on a couple of occasions, walk out and cuss. Because the man is so meticulous about the way he wants his choreography done that he will run you over and over --

Hi, I'm Otis Williams of the Temptations.

Hi, I'm Otis Williams of the Temptations.

Charlie Atkins is definitely without a doubt a taskmaster. I mean, this man has definite ideas about how he wants his routines staged. And the little hitch kicks now, see, Pauls' choreography was not as technical as Charlie's. See, Charlie is from the hoofer days. I mean Cole and Atkins, and they had very precision like steps, and you got to move your body and hitch kick and fall back and turn your body head, and all that. Paul's is much more in lay terms, very easy to do because like I said, Eddie and myself in particular, we were not dancers. So uh, we could relatively do Paul's without any real problem. Charlie Atkins? Charlie made me on a couple of days say, uh, hold up, man, I got to walk out, and as I walked out I had to go out and cuss, because there was one step I was catch pure de hell doing. And he would not accept nothing but I want it done this way, and I ain't go make it any easier, you're going to do it. So it becomes a personal challenge. So I said, no, no, after I went down in the parking lot to cuss and came back in, I said, all right, let's do it. And finally I would get it.

Now Charlie Atkins is definitely without a doubt a taskmaster. I mean, this man would make you and definitely on a couple of occasions made me stop rehearsing, go out in the parking lot, kick a can, and cuss. Because he has a certain thing in mind as far as his routines are being concerned. I mean there's things we learned like ball and chain movement, hitch kick, fade back, come back, and all these moves, but he wants you to come back and be able to sing. He said you guys are singers first, not dancers. So I'm going to give you these moves, but uh, you will still have wind enough to come back and sing. Now, Paul was much more simple. You know, like I said, Eddie and myself we were not dancers per se. Paul was. David Ruffin was a very good dancer and Melvin was good. So we could do Paul's routines with relative ease. Charlie's? You have to clear your head really think, because actually when we found out that we had to rehearse with Charlie I would say, I would get nervous, because I said, oh my God, you, you got to do all of those little hitch kids and how can we, but I'm glad. Because you know once you get a Charlie Atkins routine down, it separated you from the rest. And we found that to be very true when we would go out on big packages with a whole lot of headlining, because back in those days you would do shows that would have the battle of the groups. And the Vibrations, the Flamingos, the Four Tops and all kind of groups that was very hot at that particular time was on the show. And most cases as we started having more and more hits, we would start being the headliner. So when you're on the stage with the Flamingos and the Vibrations, who were noted for the acrobatic run and flip and then split and come back up, and the artists would be going, woo, yes, so it got to the point people were saying, wonder what the Temps going to do. So when we would come out there and do what we were noted for and all the choreography and all that stuff, it was like, who were the rest of those guys, because it was like a standout. And uh, I was very glad that you know we had Charlie because like I say he raised us above the rest. But his choreography, uh, second to none. You know, I see all these other little guys that's coming up with their choreography, but without a doubt he is definitely the master. And you know, he's just a stickler, I mean he would go over and over. We would not leave there until whatever segment of the choreography that he was teaching. We'd get that before we'd go on to anything. Uh, yeah, we'd say, okay, Charlie, but we got that, let's go on to -- no, no, no, no, and I can't even call some of the names that he would call us, because you'd be beeping all day long. So he would make sure that we would have segment, and then we'd go on to the next. And uh, I'm glad. Because like I say, when I first saw his work with what they did with the Flamingo -- I mean the Cadillacs and what have you, I was amazed. And so like I said, when we had a chance to work with him, even right today, that's who we prefer, was getting Charlie.

You talked in the past, you'd watch Gladys Knight and Pips from the wings and Charlie --

Oh, yeah, yeah. See, Gladys Knight and the Pips, there's a story that I like to tell. We were in Cleveland, Berry sent us, now we were so hot in Detroit and the neighboring little thing, you know, Lansing, Flint and what have you, that we would stop all shows. So Berry said, we want to see how good you all are. We're going to send you out of your element. We're going to send you to Cleveland on a big package. Gladys Knight and the Pips, Shep and the Limelights, the Hi-Los or Halos, or something like that, they had a big record out. Big packaging and we would open up the show. Bong, Gladys and them came out there and killed. And at that time there was five of them, four guys and Gladys. Kill. I mean, sending us back to Detroit and we said, we got to rehearse because they wiped us off the map. All right. Now Charlie hadn't entered the scene. This was still you know Paul teaching us. So about a year later we had to go to Baltimore, Royal Theater, whole 'nother ball game. People would come up, yeah, Gladys, and but did you see them Temptations? Like, how about them cowboys? That's like they were saying. How about them Temptations. And it was like redemption of the finest, because we felt good, because like I said, Cleveland? They literally ran us off the stage. But when we, uh, had that show at the Royal, it was, you know, a much better feeling because we could walk out with our heads up high. But then after that, then Charlie, you know came on the scene. But Gladys and them used to do this song called "Giving Up." And Charlie staged them, and at the end he had them so precise that, uh, Bubba Ed and Red would unbutton their jacket and do this arm movement, and do their legs. Because the music was a, chung-chung, and they would do that, but before they'd do that, they would unbutton and throw their arms up so they could do the move without the hindrance of the clothes being tight. The audience went crazy. I said, this this man thinks of unbuttoning your button just to do that? But it was all in the proper context. So I said, here's mine, when I see him right today, I said, like you hear the thing about taking Einstein's brain and studying it and see what made him come up? That's what they should do to Charlie Atkins's brain. Because his mind is so, so wonderful when it comes to staging, that you can count on, that I don't care about all these other poop-busters coming up, none of them can touch Charlie Atkins.

Charlie told me how difficult it was when you guys started doing things in the late '60s, the psychedelic soul, how difficult it was to choreograph. I want to touch on some of those songs in particular. Did you feel a sense that when you were given these songs, that you had to follow the lead, or was it something that you felt you wanted to express, that you and the group wanted to be a part of.

Oh, well, the whole trip about how we got on the psychedelic soul scene, mind you, Norman had recorded, uh, "Ain't Too Proud To Beg," and how he got us out from Smokey, again, was in a competition thing. And so Norman kept saying I got this song for the Temps. I got to get this here song on the Temps. And he kept telling Berry this. So Berry said, okay, here's what we'll do. Smokey has been successful. I think we had about like eight or nine hit songs with Smokey. And it was "Get Ready." And he said, if "Get Ready" do not crack the top ten, Norman you'll get the shot. So okay, the come out with "Get Ready" and "Get Ready" runs up the charts, but I think it stopped somewhere like in the 30s or 20s, somewhere out in there. And it didn't crack the top ten. So, Norman was over there, mm-hmm, rubbing his hands together. "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" came out and boom, then "Beauty's Only Skin Deep," a hit. "Losing You," a hit. "Please Return," a hit. Uh, "I'll Never Love Another," a hit. I mean, bam, bam, bam, in a row. So one we day we were in New York City and Kenny Gamble and myself, we were pretty tight. And we were staying at the Warwick Hotel and this was when Sly and the Family Stone emerged with "Dance To The Music." And I was telling Kenny, I said, boy they got a different kind of sound, I like that. We better pay attention to that. And Kenny said, yeah, I like them too. And Norman and the Temps have always had the kind of rapport that we would sit and talk about records and what makes a record happening and why it didn't. So there used to be a club called, not Rage, I forgot the name of it. It was on the west side of Detroit. And standing outside talking with Norman and I said Norman, have you heard this group called Sly and the Family Stone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not take from them, but we ought to do something along those lines. Because they had that [sings] "boom-boom-boompa-dum-boom-boom" all groups before that weren't doing nothing like that and it reminded me of the spiritual days, 'cause some of those spiritual groups they would have that kind of harmonies. They would break down and do that. Oh, we ain't do none of that stuff. Oh no, no. I said, well, okay. We'd go out of town, come back in, Norman had recorded the track to "Cloud Nine." I said, "Ohh". He said, "Okay, yeah, so you're right, let's go and record it." That's how we got on the, the psychedelic soul bit, was through that thing, through that kind of thing.