Well as we were doing that Berle show, we used to the "Hound Dog" straight ahead and then we'd go out. But all of a sudden he decides he's going to go into this blues thing. And that was the first time he had done it anywhere and we all looked at each other. What do we do now? And so we said, we better follow him. So, we did. And I went back into my roots of playing strip music actually, I used to work in burlesque houses when I was a youngster, and I just figured, well, I better kiss his blues licks and his legs and arms and do everything I can to get out of this song 'cause we didn't know how to get out or how to get back in, we just, it was like every man for himself actually.

So you just accented all his moves?

Oh yeah, yeah, well on all his shows actually once I found out that he liked it then every time he'd move a finger, a leg, an arm or run across the stage I'd go like a machine gun, if he'd run across I'd go ta da da, every lick I could catch, you know, that's what he seemed to like so that's probably why I kept the job for a couple of years, you know. I couldn't play but I could, I could, I could, I can underscore his feet and hands, you know.

Tell me what it was about the television shows that you all didn't like that much and how Berle's show was ...

Just, just didn't like the regimentation, ah, ah, I guess was just rebel enough we didn't want to take dir., direction probably but, you know …

Start again, etc..

Ah, we didn't like doing television that much it was just too, ah, ah, you had to stand on this strip of tape and don't turn the volume up too loud and, and usually when they, when the show started well we, we'd go ahead and move around and turn the volume and whatever anyway, probably drove everybody crazy but, ah, just, just wasn't comfortable doing that. And, ah, probably the Milton Berle Show was the first one that everybody really, ah, felt real loose because he, he was just such a great guy and made everybody feel, feel at home and relaxed.

Do you feel that way too?

Oh yeah, Berle was just so easy to work with for us especially and him and Elvis had a rapport and they got along real good. Well he got along with all those guys but seemed like Berle was the easiest guy to get along with. You know he was funny and he kept things moving and he kept people laughing and mistakes and all - that's okay guys, we'll do it again, who cares, you know, just relaxed. And I think that's what you should do actually.

I guess there was a lot of flap after that show, people writing in and complaining about Elvis's moves. The next time we see him on TV he's got the monkey suit on, on the Steve Allen Show.

Yeah, I remember that, I don't know who's idea that was. It must have been Steve's I guess. Maybe, maybe going to clean up Elvis's act I don't know if it did any good or not.

I think, looking back at it, I think it really backfired, just made, it made all his fans mad at Steve Allen is what, what it amounted to.

Were you aware there was commotion around the country?

Yeah, we knew about it. We heard, we, we'd hear about it from radio and television and different news commentators, you know, but you really couldn't worry about it, you just had to go out and do the best you could and not let you worry you. Now it did worry him. Now he worried about everything. He really did, he always worried about, - well, do you think they liked me? Did I do anything wrong? You know, we didn't see anything wrong, not comparing what they were doing later. He, he was like an angel actually.

The part that I liked that he, he really hated was when he was singing to the, to the dog. And I always loved it. I thought it was great.

You can see on those shows that Elvis was jumping around. Bill Black gets into it, you boys were kind of ...

Somebody had to play, you know, we, was only like the three pieces actually and Elvis playing rhythm and he was all over the stage and of course Bill just was the, basically the comedian, you know, of the, of the band. So, Scotty and I had, we had to keep something going somewhere, some facsimile of tempo or whatever we was trying to do or and we couldn't all just be clowns, you know, we all, somebody had to do something.

Did you have a feeling when those shows were going on that music was changing around the country?

I, I didn't, not really 'cause, ah, yeah we heard that the other groups were, ah, cranking up, playing something along similar maybe the stuff we were doing but, ah, well I turned on the radio still I would listen to big band stuff or try to find a jazz station. I don't think I noticed anything just earth shattering happening. Did you?

No, not really it all sounded kind of alike. There were different groups coming out of different times, you know, like Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee. They were all basically in, in the same vein.

But they were different.

They were different, they were all different, Johnny Cash then this kid come out of left field Gene Vincent, Gene was great. So, so many guys were coming out with different sounds all the time, I thought they were great.

We weren't the only ones, you know.

Do either of you think Elvis's style was influenced by his upbringing in the Pentecostal church?

Probably a little bit on the some of the gospel songs that he liked. He loved gospel, loved quartet singing and they had a lot of that I think in, in his church.

What I found is… excuse me, I'm sorry… what I found is, he liked music with a beat, with a tempo, with a feeling. And some of the gospel singers had the greatest feel in the world and I think he learned a lot of feel from those records and from watching artists from all, all, all walks of life. And when he sang he sang - oh, how can I say it - with a temple in his head. You couldn't lose him at all, you couldn't play something and actually lose him 'cause he'd be ahead of you, you know, his mind was so quick so you couldn't lose him at all in the song.

And something I started just, in fact in the last few years it just finally as it dawned on me that, that I had thought that way all along but just didn't know what, how to put it in words, but his voice was more like another instrument than just about everything that we did back, back then rather than being a singer, I mean if you go back and listen, you got a bass and drums and a guitar but there's this other element, it's like almost like another instrument as part of the group. Had an uncanny feel, rhythm feel, just, I mean he'd hear things, I, I'd come in on some songs that just, how did he do it? How did he know where, couldn't even play it, let alone. But he was just natural, it was all natural.

Scotty did you find that your own style of playing was changing, getting less country and more what you'd call rock?

Ah, no there was nothing, no rock to draw on, it was just, you'd try to play, ah, what, I tried to play what I thought would, ah, fit the way he was singing the song back to another instrument. I'm playing with another instrument and, ah, try to do solos and fills that, that made sense on that song, not just something from, that I read out of a book three days ago.

I think we all played the same way actually. We tried to complement each other and ..

And we played for him, you know, for the singer, we let the singer sing and we comp., tried to complement him the best we could. And I think that's why maybe the records were so good. And still to this day I hear these records and I say, well that's, those records are good actually.

I'll give you, give you an example, "Don't Be Cruel". I played 8 or 12 notes on the intro and I play a chord on the end and I played not another note. It just didn't need it. It didn't need a bunch of, the song in the way he sing it, just stood on its own.

Ed Sullivan Show, people talk the real point at which rock and roll became mainstream.

Well, I'm not sure about the Sullivan Show now 'cause we did, I think we did some of it before that, I think we did the Dorsey shows before that.

Those were the first one.

Those were the first. That may have been, ah, what kind of broke us loose 'cause we had six of those actually. And then I think we did the Sullivan so he wasn't the first, he was the most important show actually in the United States. But him and Elvis got along fine, they really did.

Let's face it, if the responds off of the other the Dorsey shows and hadn't been good enough I don't think Sullivan would have had us on the air. And, ah, yeah, they did, they got along. In fact, ah, the last show we did, do you remember, ah, Sullivan made a, took valuable time on the show and, and I forget the exact words he said but ___ to the public, you know, saying, this is a real nice boy, you know. It was, it was very unexpected.

When you were traveling around the county you listened to stations like WLAC and people like Hoss Allen and Jon R.

Yeah, we had the, the radio on most of the time if Bill didn't kick it out but yeah, that's the only time we actually listened to radio much was while we was traveling late at night. And it would actually keep us awake, John R. and there's a guy down in New Orleans we'd listen to, one out of Chicago and one out of Seattle and actually at certain times of the month you could get the Shreveport, Louisiana Hayride, like a hundred thousand watts, so it was a pretty powerful station. Then we got a couple stations out of Del Rio, Texas for a hundred thousand watts. So that kept us moving all night long, actually. If it wasn't for them, we'd be sleeping on the side of the road somewhere.

When you were traveling and doing shows and you'd be on a show with black performers, rhythm and blues group, what was the interaction like? Was there any resentment on their part like, hey you're stealing our music or anything like that?

No, we never heard that, no. Well we never thought about it, I don't think the black artists did too. We were all out there trying to satisfy the people and we played together, we worked together, you know, so I don't know, maybe musicians and maybe we got another thought about that. When I was living in Louisiana we had a club we'd all go to, black, white, whoever wanted to jam could go and nobody was mad at anybody, we just went there to play and have a good time, that's all.

I think musicians dance to a different drummer.

That could be it, we had more fun, you know

We never saw any resentment anywhere.

After you played the national television shows: Berle and Allen and especially the Ed Sullivan Show, you got to be a real phenomenon in the country. What did you think was going on? Why were the kids in the country so receptive to this kind of music? Was there a lack in the music they were hearing or was it just 'cause it was something new, a new kind of energy? What do you think?

I think it was the energy, I think it was him. I don't know, I'm not sure if it was the music exactly, I think it was Elvis. You know these, these, these, these kids, even the guys, you know, they saw the kid with the long sideburns and the, and the hair and everybody wanted to be like Elvis. All the kids out there had long hair and duck tails and peg pants. So I think he was just, ah, maybe the music had a little something to do with it but I think it was just basically Elvis. You know his looks, you know, he looked like a rebel and a lot of kids at that time thought they were all rebels, you know. So I just think it was him.

Sure enough he wasn't a rebel, just a ...

He's straight ahead.

It was his total package, ah.

Well he delivered the music, like Dave said earlier, the charisma with an audience, ah.

He could go out there and the audience wouldn't be on his side for maybe five minutes but all of a sudden somehow or another he'd turn them around and they was on his side and he could do no wrong then.

If you had to say briefly how rock and roll began, how would you answer that question? How did it begin? Who started it?

I think somebody coined a phrase, period. I don't know if it started anywhere. Of course you had Bill Haley out there, you know, and you had, well you had Fats Domino and you had so many guys. I guess they just lumped it into one package said, this, we're going to call this rock and roll. I think it was Alan Freed in Cincinnati or somewhere that coined that phrase or something and it, it just stuck. I don't think anyone called it that as musicians, you know, we didn't say we was playing rock and roll. I'm sure Fats didn't and I'm sure Bill Haley didn't. We're just playing what we want to play and it fit and somebody coined a phrase.

Alan Freed gets credit for that and, ah, the rock and roll connotation comes out of R and B music. Rock and roll, we're going to rock and roll all night. And I think everybody can figure out what we're talking about. But Alan Freed had the guts, if you will, to, to stick that label on a certain avenue of music. I don't know if it fits or not.

What about rockabilly, were a lot of people doing that kind of mixture of country and rhythm and blues around that time?

I think most of them basically were doing the same thing like Carl Perkins he had his style, well Johnny Cash naturally had his style and Jerry Lee had his, Roy Orbison had his, you know, you can go on, back to Fats, everybody had their own style.

Now if you're talking about in '54 when the, ah, around Memphis area anyway we thought it was just honky-tonk music. There were very few groups that were, I mean the same personnel together all the time. You might go out and work with a, a violinist, a steel guitar player and a flue player, no telling, just all different combinations of, of, of bands. But all of them had to play a few of the top pop songs, country songs, R and B songs and above all it had to be able for people to dance to it. And that was the, that was the criteria.