Let's go back to the beginning where you would be in the choir in Texas, the family moves to Detroit. Tell me about the early days of church music and your experience with that and how it informed what you wanted to do with singing.

Well, originally I'm from Texarkana, Texas. And I was raised by my grandmothers on both sides of my father and my mother, mother. And uh, staying with my father's mother, you know, uh, there was no television back during that time and a lot of chores, and uh, she was a disciplinarian, and having to go to church sometimes not only on Sundays, but uh during the week, the church would have different kinds of functions and I was part of the choir. And so I used to listen to the radio growing up and back during those days, I'm from, you know, listening at the Pilgrim Travelers, the Soulsters, the Dixie Hummingbirds, the Highway QCs, um, Swan Silvertones. And so I would just lay there and just be knocked about all that wonderful harmony that they would be making. And uh, being part of the choir and uh, so that was where I guess my desire to sing started. And then as it would be back during that time, the great migration to the North, you know, for better work for jobs and all that, um, my parents, mother, moved to Detroit and then I guess about three or four years later had me to come up. And by that time I was about like 11, going on 12. And uh, we moved to the lower east side of Detroit. Now, it used to be Verna Highway, but now I think it's the Chrysler Freeway that's there now. And I stayed not too far from a section that was very, very rough, called Black Bottom, where they would really clean your plow if you went there and they did not know who you were or you did not belong there. So, uh, but I found, uh, Detroit to be fascinating because you know it takes a kind of a relatively smaller town and then here I come to this big city with the tall buildings and the fast cars and all that, and so, uh, I would spend a lot of times, come up there for the summer vacations and then go back to Texas, but like I said there came one time that I just came to Detroit and we stayed and uh, going to school there and you know, the comic books and the normal things that kids do as you would grow. But then we moved to a little part of Detroit, uh, further, um, Brush and Alfred. And when we moved from Verna Highway to Brush and Alfred…

Let's talk about the excitement of seeing some of those groups that you talked about. You would come to Detroit with your friends who would open.

Well, after moving to Detroit and being there, oh I guess, for a few years, then we moved to the west side of Detroit which was to me a very energized part of Detroit. Because that's when we started hearing about Berry and the Miracles and Barrett Strong, and this fellow by the name of Ronnie Teller used to live right across the street from Berry, when he had a two-family flat. And we would sit on the stoop and just wonder, man, what's all that activity going. You see, we would see Barrett Strong and Eddie Holland, and Marv Johnson and the Satin Tones and all kind of people in and out carrying boxes and jumping in this little Volkswagen riding all over, you know, delivering whatever. And uh, little by little, you know, uh, we started singing, and I had my own little popular group. And uh, I met Berry at St. Stephen's Community Center. Now my group at the time was Otis Williams and the Distants, which we had a regional hit. And we were very, very popular. So we were doing this record hop at St. Stephen's Community Center, and at the time the Miracles were really coming into their own, and they had their first million seller, "Shop Around." So as we were on the stage performing, uh, you can see who's ever coming in or going out of St. Stephen's Community Center, because the stage sat real high. And we were doing a number, they wouldn't let us off, they kept calling us back. So finally we came off and uh, uh, the Miracles went on. And uh, history was made in the men's room. So as we -- I was in the men's room and Berry came in and he said, I love your group, you guys are very popular, blee-da-day, this and that. If you should ever become unhappy where you are, come see me because I'm starting my own company. So he gave me the card. And we were disenchanted with the people that we were with, because you know, they uh, sold the masters to a larger company, and the name of the record that we had out that was very popular was "C'mon." And she sold the masters and came back just flashing big hundred dollar bills and talking about how much money, uh, she was making. So we were young, but we were young enough to know that, well, if that's the case, shouldn't we see some statements or orders? And uh, things started to decline between the company that we were with then. So I took Berry up on his offer. I called him and uh, he said c'mon on, on over and when you get here see Mickey Stevens who was in charge of Motown's A and R division.

What was Berry Gordy like when you met him?

Berry, as always, very energetic. Knew about bringing certain elements together and making something happen. He was very wise about what it would take to make a song become a real song, and always stressed the thing of great lyrical content and melodies. And aside from him being a very creative person, Berry Gordy is actually a funny, funny man. Because on numerous occasions I would tell him, Mr., you're really funny. I mean he could do certain things and he'd be acting out whatever he's talking about, and his eyes would get big and his expression, I would be standing there laughing, and so he was a very, very, he as still today he's probably somewhat mellower because, you know, he's not in that uh, same, uh, mood now than it was then. But very creative, funny man to be around, with a lot of wisdom and insight. So it was very, very good being around him.

You told me once about how you used to hear his name on the radio. And they would announce his name. They'd play a hit record and say written by Berry Gordy. And that was an important thing.

Yeah, it was, because it was almost like Berry uh, was just as important as Jackie Wilson. And they were speaking of Jackie Wilson who was a homegrown talent, and uh, "Reet Petite," "To Be Loved," "That's Why" and quite a few others that Berry had written and at the end of, you know, the record, they would say, Jackie Wilson, written by Berry Gordy. And you'd say, gee, there his name is again. And then the same thing with Marv Johnson because he would write Marv Johnson's earlier hits and Barrett Strong. So this man's name started being just as important as the artists who were singing and performing the record, which also made me, I'm glad at that time listening to the radio and what have you, because when he gave he his card it just really made that more happy to be at the right place at the right time, because we knew of him even while we over at Northern Records. And so like I said he had us to come over and we met with Mickey Stevens. And went downstairs and started working on our first few hits. So we must have recorded by like eight or nine records before we really caught on with "The Way You Do The Things You Do." But we came close to having our first hit in 1962 when Berry wrote "Do You Love Me." And few people know it, that it really was written for the Temptations. But he could not find us that day, because … the Temps at that point in time, uh, was Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, uh, Eldridge Bryant, um, Melvin Franklin and myself. And so we were over at St. Stephens, no, I take that back, King Solomon's Church on 14th and it was Grand Boulevard, and the Harmonizing Four, Dixie Hummingbirds, and two other notables were on the bill, and we had gone to see them. So in the process of us being there, Berry was talking about, where are the Temps, I got a smash, where are the Temps. And he could not find us. So we came around the next day, and he said, boy, y'all missed it. Missed what? I had a tune for you, couldn't find it, so I had to give it to the Contours. So he played it for us, and, man, we said, I'll be damned. Missed out on that one.

Can you give us the impression of why you were at the show instead of --

Well, we had always been into gospel. Because, uh, even David, and uh, before David got into the group, we knew about David, but the guys then, uh, Eddie, Paul all of us we would rehearse on gospel tunes as well as, uh, secular music. We would open up with -- [sings] "Ohh, Mary don't you weep." All that and "The Lord's Prayer" and just various kinds of gospel songs so it was just steeped in us because all of us was from the South. And uh, so that's how a lot of times we would open up our own practices with, uh, singing gospel music. So when we got wind of the Dixie Hummingbirds coming to Detroit? Oh, we had to go see them, because, uh, William Bobo down there on bass, and then my man on lead, can never think of his name, but his daughter sand with the, uh, sung with the Supremes, and uh, so the Harmonizing Four went on and did their bit and I never will forget, uh, as the, uh, the Dixie Hummingbirds was going up they said, they looked down at us and said, now watch what we do. And they went up there and turned the place out. So that's where we were, just getting more steeped in that good old gospel harmonies.

So you were talking about "Do You Love Me" and it brings up a point about the competitive atmosphere at that time. In the early days particular it must have felt like a family, but you were also working against each other to get that hit.

Well, you know being in Motown at the very beginning is and was a wonderful experience because, uh, the kind of electricity, the kind of fervor that was happening then, we knew, even at that very early stage of what was happening that this was a very special place to be. Because we had recorded for little independent companies there in Detroit. But being there with Motown, being there with Berry, and he was such a competitor that he would have that same kind of energy within his company structure, uh, as far as writers and producers and artists and what have you just to bring the best out of everyone. And we were very hungry to the point of, uh, it was like a challenge, you know. And then we also would help one another as far as like on "Mickey's Monkey", uh, that's, um, myself with Martha and the Vandellas and just probably one of the Miracles and what have you. So whoever needed help, uh, you know, we would be glad to handclap, background footstomp, all that whatever it would take to help the, uh, situation go. So it was a wonderful experience because it really had that family atmosphere. You know, of like no other place. So I knew, you know, that I had a very strong feeling that we would make it and being there and so into it --

So we were talking about the family atmosphere at Motown. Let's talk about the real competitive spirit, because you guys were hitless for three years. You must have been feeling like, when's it going to happen for us, what do we get out of it.

Well, yeah, we were hitless for about three years and I think we recorded about eight or nine different songs before we really caught on with "The Way You Do The Things You Do." But that was just the way Berry believed not only in us, the Supremes. At one point in time they were calling them the no-hit Supremes. Because they had recorded quite a few singles before Holland and Dozier got them with where did our love go. And so he was a man of vision and strong belief in the artists that he had signed to his company, that he would stay right along with you until, you know, it happened. And uh, you know, it was just good to have someone who would believe in you to, oh, missed, let's go back again. So he would try, one, I'll show you how strong of a believer he was in us. Nolan Strong of the Diablos had this hit out called "Mind Over Matter," and so it was doing very well. And uh, with Eddie singing in the high same kind of tenor range as Nolan, uh, Motown decided to do "Mind Over Matter" on the Temps. But the catcher was that he was going to call us, he called us the Pirates. So now here we are, this one group, working under two different names. Whichever jumped off first that would've been the group we would've gone. Now, bad as we wanted a hit record, I did not want to be called no Pirates. You know, I said, oh God, if this record jumps out, you mean we got to come on stage with the patch eye and the feather head and the boots and all that. But uh, it didn't happen, you know. But he was trying whatever route he could to make the Temptations, uh, he could to make the Temptations happen, and so we recorded that song. And then he had us in the studio with Clarence Paul and Mickey Stevens. Then he took us in with, uh, "Dream Come True" on us, and then we would go in with uh, uh, Holland-Dozier, at the very early stage, you know, you put it on the boxed set, one I have long forgotten.

The atmosphere of Berry pitching producers at each other to get a certain fire and a certain kind of performance.

Well, he wanted us to have a hit. And then like I said, with that competitive feeling, you know, he just didn't want nobody to get in no comfort zone, and I guess we couldn't because it was such an early stage of Motown and everybody being full of hunger and desire to win and to make it that I think everybody thrived off that competitive feeling that was being generated at the time. And we loved it because it just would bring the best out of you. And you know, so every Friday I think it was, they would have a quality control meeting where they would, all that had been recorded, we would say yea, nay or why is this record what it is, or why isn't it, you know, so they would go back and record it if they felt uh, something was needed and what have you. So it got to the point that uh, one day, we, Smokey, uh, and the Miracles were on the road and they were riding in this station wagon and they started, "You got a smile so bright." And Smokey say, oh, let's do this on the Temps. So okay, they come in off the road, and naturally as always, say, hey Temps, you know, it's a song you have to record. So we came up to Motown and we went upstairs, because at that time the pianos and everything was upstairs and downstairs was the studios. So we were upstairs, Smokey sits down at the piano and he passed the lyrics around, and I'm reading the lyrics, and saying, what? You got a smile so bright, you know you could've been a candle. I say, that's hokey. But the more I looked at it and we started putting the harmony together, I said, this is some pretty clever stuff, even though it was very simple, but it had a nice unique thing about it, and once we put the voices together and rehearsed it and went in the studio and we heard the track and we put it all together, uh, that was the one. We used to work a lot of different places in and around Detroit, so uh, now this was January of '64, and by that time David Ruffin had joined the group, and so it was David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Melvin Franklin and myself. So we had gone to, um, Saginaw, no, Muskegon, Michigan. And we were up there for like three to four weeks. And now, Motown was always the place that we would migrate when we would be home. We would, everyone, the Supremes, the Marvelettes, um, Contours, whoever was at Motown, we'd just come up there and sit around chew the fat and just go from one room to another just having that kind of, uh, camaraderie bonding and what have you. But this time when came back from Muskegon, as always, we would come up to Motown. And so I forgot who it was, and he said, uh, have you guys heard what's happening? We said, no, what you mean? He said, well, y'all got a hit. So it was just David and myself up there that particular day. So say that again? He said, you guys got a hit. And they went and got the Billboard and showed it to us and I think we jumped in at 76, something like that with a bullet. And at that time, Motown had this here lounge area, and they had a long chaise longue where you know when you would come in, people would sit down there to wait to go to whatever appointment that they had. And David took off his glasses and he sat down and he cried. Because David had been a solo artist and he did not have, uh, success as a solo artist. And he had a name, you know, it just never happened for him. And uh, so him and I sat down, and uh, we both cried together, because it was like three to four years trying to get one. You know, I guess the thing of paying the dues, and bingo, that was the one. And the Motown Revue tours and all kind of accolades and everything started happening. And that was the real beginning of our long work that I think we still carrying on today. But it really started taking on a whole 'nother kind of life form then because the plot thickened. By that I mean, uh, uh, we started recording more. And then '66 I think it was, that's when Artist Development was uh, and it was headed by Harvey Fuquar who used to sing with Harvey and the Moonglows. And Berry had the insight to set this up and pass it on to Harvey. Harvey in turn had the wisdom to find Charlie Atkins and Maurice King and Johnny Allens and La Fontaines, and Maxine Powell and Ardena Johnson, all those people. They would take all this raw talent, speaking of the Miracles, the Four Tops, because they had signed, I think in '64 or '63. And uh, Contours, even the B-groups as they referred to like the Monitors, the Spinners, well they would take all those acts and uh, they would take us in and would sit us and down and talk to us. Which is something that's missing from the acts that I see on the scene today. And they'd say, we are going to work out an act for you guys, so that you will not have to worry about if you do not have a hit work, your money will drop and you don't work. If you're going to be in show business, be in show business the right way. We're going to construct an act whereas you can work any room. Uh, we want to teach you guys about how to carry yourselves as professionals, how to sit and talk when you get interviewed, and the whole, you know, nine yards, which I'm very glad, because I think, uh, part and parcel that's why we're around 34 years later. Because with all this young talent…