Tell us when you first heard Bob Dylan? Were you already writing here at that time?

I was, I was contributing editor of the Saturday Evening Post at that time and they assigned me to do a, an article on Bob Dylan a profile. Actually I had heard about him from a woman whom I had known from LA. Her name was Carmen Paz. And it was after Bob's first Town Hall recital I met her in the Village and she was just all enthusiastic about Bob. She said he had, there was a fantastic recital at Town Hall and I heard from, subsequently heard from other people but Carmen was later a lover of or maybe at that time a lover of Albert Grossman, Bob's manager and they even had a baby which she said was Albert's. Albert always denied that it was his baby even though even as a child the kid looked exactly like him. And, ah, throughout his life he, he, he gave Carmen money to raise the kid but, ah, that was the first I heard about Bob. Then I got an assignment from the editors at the Saturday Evening Post to profile him. So I made contact and he wanted to meet me at a bar called Chumley's in the West Village which has book jackets from all the writers who got drunk there, it was supposed to be a literary bar. I haven't been there since, I doubt that Bob has been there since too. And he was telling me about something, I, you know, it's like, as long as I've known Bob I don't think he's ever, I don't I've ever heard him give me or anybody else a straight answer about anything. And, ah, he was talking about being at the Carousel in Central Park with a girl who was not his girl friend but a girl friend of one of his friend's. And I just didn't understand what he was talking about. But that was the first time I met Bob.

Did he have barrier between him and the world?

Oh yeah he was, he was very aloof and like I say I think he gets his greatest kick out of confounding his audience even today. I mean he just, he's confounding his audience with his lyrics, with the way he sings. But, ah, like I say, it was hard to get to know him but I was very interested in him and fell in love with his music the first time I heard the Free-Wheeling Bob Dylan album, I just got so hung on side A that I never turned the record over until about several months later and I kept listening to side A over and over again.

This was during the period he was still doing the political songs, was it or was he moving out of that?

Oh, this was 1963 and, ah, this was really just at the start of his ascendance of, he was just bursting out into the open. I fell so much in love with Bob and with his music that I never really wrote the article for the Saturday Evening Post it was like Jimmy Cannon said of Frank Sinatra, I can't write about him and be his friend too.

So, did you start hanging out with him right away, or did the friendship develop gradually.

Well I pretty much started hanging out with him right away. I, I dropped Paul Newman for him, never wrote the article about Paul Newman either.

What was that song on the Free-Wheeling Bob Dylan.

Well on the Free-Wheeling Bob Dylan, the song that stands out in my memory I can't even remember the other songs but the one song that I really liked was "Girl From The North Country" and I especially liked the harmonica, the, the emotional blast that he gives in the bridge and it just, it just threw me every time. I mean I just loved it. I don't know for what reason I just felt his emotion in that harmonica blast.

Was he talking about rock and roll at that time? Had he heard the Beatles at this point?

Well at that time I think Bob was pretty much of a folk, folky purist and I used to argue with him that because I was into pop, I, I loved the Beatles and he just scorned the Beatles, he thought they were just bubble gum. And I would argue with him that, I would tell him that today's hits are tomorrow's folk music classics. That was my point of view.

He seems to have changed his mind about that.

Yeah of course, Bob is into making money now I hear.

Do you remember the point at which he got interested in the Beatles and not in rock?

Well, ah, I, ah, I was assigned by the Post to, the Saturday Evening Post to do an article about the Beatles too and I did, I covered their arrival at Kennedy and, ah, got to know Neal Aspin all the number one road manager and he helped me get to know the rest of the Beatles, Neal eventually became one of my dearest friends and, ah, like I say Bob, you know, at first turned his nose up at the Beatles and then, ah, I, the, my article about the Beatles did so well they had, they had a picture of the Beatles on the cover of the Saturday Evening Post it sold more copies than issue of the Saturday Evening Post since Benjamin Franklin founded the magazine. And so they wanted me to do another article about the Beatles during the following summer. By that time I knew the Beatles, I knew John well enough to tell, you know, at that time, well, let's see at first, when they were singing - "I can't hide, I can't hide, I can't hide" I thought they were singing "I get high, I get high, I get high" 'cause I couldn't imagine that anybody making such hip music could not be a pot smoker and, ah, when I went to do the second article, they sent me to England and, ah, by that, by that time I learned that the Beatles were like all of England, all the kids in England were pill heads they would swallow any pill you gave him and I asked him what it was. And I thought, I was sort of against pills, I followed the hippie line that pills were manmade and where, whereas marijuana grew naturally from the ground. And I, you know, I thought pills were bad for you. And, ah, so I started talking to John about it after I learned that they didn't smoke pot and I told him, marijuana is much hipper than pills and finally I got him to a point where he'd say, well bring me some I'll try it. I also started talking to him about, to Lennon about Bob Dylan, I thought they should meet. And he said, well, I'm not ready to meet him till I'm ego equally 'cause he, he liked Dylan's lyrics. I don't know how much of Dylan he had listened to but to him Dylan was a star and he, a bigger star than he was and he wasn't ready to meet him 'cause he said I want to meet him on my own terms he said. And then when they came to the U.S. after I had written the second article about the Beatles, excuse me, I stayed at the Delmonico Hotel on Park Avenue.

Pick it up, Beatles arrived at the Delmonico.

Beatles were staying at the Delmonico Hotel on Park Avenue and, ah, I got a phone call from Brian Epstein in England, I remember he called and at that time it was a big thing for me to get a phone call all the way from England. And as I was talking to him I noticed that, I was in the, I, I had a house in Berkeley Heights, New Jersey and I, and the phone was in the family room and I'm standing, talking in the family room and a potato chip that had been lying on the floor was picked up by a team of ants like fireman holding a life net and carrying it across the floor. And, so Brian said, said that they were coming into town and they wanted, ah, they said they were coming into town and he said John would call me when they came into town. And John called me, he said, well where's Dylan? I said I think he's up at Woodstock, I'll get him. He said, bring him around. So I called Dylan and it was like Dylan was doing me a favor, you know. And, ah, he drove down with Victor Mamoudis who was his road manager at that time and is still his road manager today but there was a long hiatus in between. Mamoudis is road managing a job.

So, I called up Bob and you know told me that the, the Beatles, you know, told him to come down with the Beatles. And it was like he was doing me a favor and he came down, Victor Mamoudis and they picked me up and we drove over to the Delmonico in Bob's blue station wagon I believe it was, it was either his station wagon or my station wagon and I think it was his and then we went in into Delmonico and there was, you know, a bunch of kids outside and a lot of police security and we were in the lobby and I had to call up and somebody had to come down, I called up My… Myer Levins who was the number two Beatles road manager and he was [cough] excuse me, by that time my friend. He came down and escorted us up and as we got off the elevator I forget which floor it was, to your right there was one suite and that suite was filled with radio personalities and, ah, radio personalities and DJs and I think the Kingston Trio and Peter, Paul, and Mary and they were being entertained by Derrick Taylor who was one of the most charming men I ever met and he, Derrick Taylor can hold a conversation with a multitude of people like a chess master playing chess with 50 people, he can hold a conversation with each one and, ah, so that was to the right and Mal took us into the Beatle suite which was to the left. We got in, they had just finished eating supper and the room service table was there with the remains of their supper. And we got in, I forget how the conversation went but Alan Ginsberg later asked me, if the, if the meeting was demure? And that's exactly the word for it. I mean the meeting actually was demure. All, these two giant, to me they were giants, both Bob and the Beatles, they didn't want to step on one another's ego and but they did need room for swash, swash, swashbuckling and, ah, let's see, somehow the conversation got around to drugs. Well, to drink first, because Bob, Bob always liked cheap wine. He said, you got any cheap wine? Of course they didn't have any cheap wine they only had champagne and expensive liquors. And, ah, so Bob had to settle for something expensive to get drunk on which he immediately did. Then somehow the conversation got around to, ah, ah, drugs. They said, they offered some pills and of course I was against pills and, ah, and Bob says, I think it was Bob or me I forget, something about brought up the, I can't hide, I can't hide, we thought they were saying, I get high, I get high. And, ah, John of course applies this by telling us by telling us that it was - I can't hide, I can't hide. And then we finally talked him into having a joint of marijuana. So I had Victor, I'd made sure that Vic., I brought, I forget if it was my drugs I think it was my drugs and Victor carried it and, ah, so we pulled out the Baggie and Bob rolled the first joint. I, I didn't know how to roll a joint at that time, I would smoke my marijuana in a pipe. And, ah, Bob was not a very good roller either and he was trying to roll this joint over the bowl, bowl of fruit on the room service table taking the, ah, marijuana out of the Baggie and put it into the rolling paper and trying to roll it and half the marijuana was spilling into the bag of fruit. But he finally rolled a joint and then we explained to them about the aroma. So we decided to go into the adjoining bedroom. And, ah, there was, let's see there was Mal Evans and Neal Aspinall, the two road managers and the four Beatles and their manager Brian Epstein who kept calling in the boys, that's all he was ever interested in was boys. And, ah, we went to the bedroom and I, I've seen stories, there are a lot of apocryphal stories about, being written about, you know, those days and one is that we made, we were careful to put towels un., under the door cracks so the aroma wouldn't leak out. I don't remember that. We just went into another room and there was a bed there and John and Ringo and the Beatles sat at the head of the bed which was toward the front of the room near the window and we were toward the door and Dylan handed a joint to John and John handed the joint to Ringo which immediately told the Beatles' pecking order. And John made a remark about Ringo being his royal taste tester. He said, here Ringo, you try it first. Then Ringo lit up and starting smoking it. Well of course the Beatles were unacquainted with pot smoker's rituals which by which you pass the joint 'cause the stuff is too valuable to waste and let it just burn but they didn't know about it so Ringo just smoked it like it was his own cigarette. So, ah, I gave the bag of marijuana to Victor who immediately, he, Victor could roll joints that looked like cigarettes and he did a very good job. And he rolled a cigarette for each one 'cause I didn't, I mean I didn't want the Beatles to think, you know, that there was anything unsanitary about passing it lip to lip like a, like a bunch of winos drinking from the same bottle on the corner. So finally the four Beatles and Brian each had a joint and we started smoking and we all started smoking. And after a while Ringo started giggling, pretty soon we started laughing at the way Ringo was laughing and that's all it was, it was one big laugh. I mean, then we started laughing at the way Brian Epstein was laughing then each of us got laughed at in turn at the way we were laughing. It was just kept a round, kept going, going a round of laughter, everybody laughing. And after that, as a matter of fact, whenever Donald wanted to get high we'd never … he would never say, let's roll a joint, let's smoke some pot or, you know, he would say, let's have a larf.

Did you stay up there for a while?

Yeah, we were up there for a while. After a while, you know, ah, ah, Paul got high and he seemed to think it was the first time he had ever done some real thinking so he had Mal Evans follow him, follow him around with a pad and a pencil and write down everything he said. I don't know what happened to those notes, Mal eventually left his wife and kids. Mal was a, Mal was at the Cabin Club in Liverpool, Mal was a part time bouncer but he was big, you know, tremendous, big, he was a gentle giant. He was such a sweet, nice guy he would never hurt, hurt a fly but he was big and he had a frightening physique. There were several times when the Beatles were playing at the Cavern Club in Liverpool which Mal because of his size was able to rescue them like a hand reaching down from the heavens to pull them out of tight spots. So he became the number two road manager, of course Neal had been the road manager even before Ringo was the drummer. And, ah, but Mal eventually, Mal, girls trying to get to the Beatles would try, would hit on Mal and he always had the most beautiful women hanging around him until finally he ran off with one of them a woman named Frances Hughes and he left his wife and kids and ended up in LA living with Frances Hughes. And they were having a rough time together and they got into guns and, ah, into all kinds of drugs and, ah, they were arguing and fighting with each other a lot and one time he got very angry and he was very drugged and he took his rifle and went upstairs to the bedroom and locked the door. And she called the LA Police Department and the cops, she said, my old man is upstairs in the bedroom with a gun and they went upstairs and bat., battered down the door and Mal was heavily sedated, he was in a stupor and when the door came crashing down he was alarmed and he, he grabbed his rifle and, and looked toward the door. When they saw him grab his rifle they shot him to death. And, ah, I don't know what happened to those notes that he wrote down.

Did they talk about music at all?

Yeah but I don't remember what they said, they talked about records and music and I don't remember exactly what was said.

Was there music playing or anything like that?

No, there was no music playing that I remember. It was all conversation.

Did they talk about each other's work at all?

Well like I say, I don't really remember exactly the words that were spoken. I would like one of these days to go interview each one of the surviving members of that group but there's a lot of people not talking to one another from that group.

How soon after this did you begin to see some kind of influence from what Dylan was doing going over especially John's songwriting?

Well, ah, I'd say pretty, there was another time when the Beatles were doing a benefit at the old Paramount theatre that Frank Sinatra used to sing at before they tore it down on Broadway, the Beatles were doing some kind of benefit, I forget what kind, and I brought Bob, we went backstage and Bob stood on a chair in the wings and watched the whole show from standing on a chair in the wings but you couldn't hear anything just the girls screeching. But after that, Bob was staying at my house in Berkeley Heights. I was working on a deadline at the Saturday Evening Post on an article about Peter, Paul and Mary and, ah, Bob had my wife drive him to a place called Rondo Music on Route 22 in New Jersey and rented an electric guitar, brought it back to my house and started fiddling with it, playing it. After that that's, that was the start of folk rock. And, ah, obviously the meeting between Bob and the Beatles influenced each, I mean the influence was noticeable, high, highly noticeable. The Beatles started writing much grittier lyrics and Bob went electric and invented folk rock.