Okay.

Madame Binh, first I would like to ask you what life was like in Saigon, under the French, for a bourgeois intellectual family.

I think that under French domination even Vietnamese intellectuals felt that they were citizens...they were people...who felt oppressed, who were being oppressed. They felt the oppression. Of course, it was not as heavy as with the other segments of the society. But we felt that we were not independent because discrimination existed in every aspect of life, even in the schools.

You see, there were schools for the French or for those “naturalized” French citizens, and Vietnamese could only attend those schools with a great deal of difficulty. There were some Vietnamese (in those schools) but they were the children of very, very wealthy families, or else they enjoyed privileged conditions under that regime.

Did you not, during your youth, have some experience yourself which shows that?

Yes. You know, at that time we had some contacts with French students. Sometimes we had arguments because we felt that we were not being properly treated by the French. We felt that Vietnam belonged to the Vietnamese. There were always these feelings, even among the students.

How was the atmosphere in Saigon in August 1945, during the August Revolution? Do you recall the atmosphere in Saigon?

Yes, of course. The entire population rose up at that time. All the segments of the population stood up against the French colonialists from the intellectuals to the bourgeois nationalists to the peasants and the workers, naturally. Everyone was standing up against the invaders, the dominators.

Could you describe the atmosphere of the city on that day, the day of the Revolution?

Yes. I was in Saigon at that time, of course. And I tell you, everyone was out in the streets. The hottest spot at that time was around the cathedral which was in the center of the city, on that boulevard...I can’t remember the name...but it was the largest boulevard in Saigon and it led to the cathedral. It runs now in front of the Independence Palace which we now call the Reunification Palace. It was then the hottest spot. At that time some French were shooting at the crowd and there was a real revolt of the population against the French who were shooting from the houses located around there. I was there.

When the Allies came, did you have any contact with the English, the Allies? And did you have any hope that they were going to do something for Vietnam?

Yes. Personally I had some contact with the English. And we had some hope that the Allies would help us liberate ourselves and win back our national independence. But very soon we saw that the Allies were not on our side. And, you know that subsequently it was the Allies who helped the French set up their occupation.

Do you recall details of your contacts with the English, for instance?

Yes. I myself met some English officers. But those officers did not understand anything of the situation in our country. They were interested in other things, not in helping us. Rather, they were seeking pleasure. We saw that it was not with good intentions that those missions were coming to Saigon. And very soon we saw that the Allies were precisely the people who were helping the French to come back.

When did you join the Viet Minh and under what circumstances? Do you recall some details?

I come from a family which could be called nationalistic. My grandfather on my mother’s side was a great patriot, a nationalist. My father and mother were influenced by my grandfather’s family. For that reason, during the French occupation, although my parents did not participate in clandestine activities before '45—they did not participate because they were civil servants, but it is possible to say that patriotism existed in the heart of every Vietnamese.

For that reason, when the August Revolution came in '45, everyone, including my family,in '45 my mother had already passed away, my father immediately joined the Viet Minh. And I, too, participated in the activities of the Viet Minh.

Could you give more details?

Could you give more details on how you joined the Viet Minh, what you did, where you were, a few anecdotes which would describe these things?

Before August 25, '45, which means before the uprising in Saigon, I was already participating in the struggle against illiteracy. This was an organization of the Viet Minh, but under cover. So I started out with what you could call social activities with my participation in that movement.

Then, before August, Viet Minh cadres got in touch with us and organized us into groups under the direct command of the Viet Minh. I began to work in political education. And it was precisely in that context that I met with the English Allies. I was in the political education section.

And then?

Then I participated in other struggle movements in Saigon. I was in the Women’s Movement, in the Intellectuals’ Movement. In '51, I was arrested and kept in prison until '54. I was in Chi Hoa prison, in Saigon.

Could you tell us about those three years in prison? What was done to you? How was life in prison?

It was not a very easy life. First, we were arrested because we were carrying on political struggles. We were explaining to the people the goals of the Viet Minh, organizing political and even military forces in the city itself. I was arrested together with other comrades. We were kept in the Sûreté on Catinat Street.

This is a place well known to our compatriots because people often had to go through that place on their way to the penitentiary and other prisons in the southern part of Vietnam. I was arrested and tortured at the Sûreté on Catinat Street. After that I was transferred to Chi Hoa prison which was located in the city. All that time there were two prisons, the Maison Centrale and Chi Hoa prison which was its annex.

When you speak about being tortured, could you describe that for us?

They beat us up, they made us drink water, electrocuted us...So I was tortured five or six months like that before being sent to Chi Hoa prison.

While in prison, was there any trial?

Oh yes. Over a year after our arrest, we were tried and sentenced to four years in prison. I stayed in prison until the Geneva Accords. I was freed by those Accords, because I had only been through about three years of prison. But I was freed at the time of the Geneva Accords.

Could you recall how life was in prison? Were you with other comrades? Were you politically active in prison? How was every day life?

In prison we were, of course, political prisoners. So we carried on our activities. But it was not just political activities. For us there were also other activities which promoted political work. For example, we organized classes in an effort to raise the cultural level of our comrades who were mostly peasants and workers. I gave courses in prison. At times we were punished for these activities. All our books and notebooks would be taken away. We would try to find new ones and we would go on. There were quite a few things to do in prison.

After your release in 1954, what happened? You remained in the South?

After my release I was with our present Acting President, Mr. Nguyen Huu Tho. He was an attorney in Saigon. He was leading a movement which was called the “Movement of Struggle for the Implementation of the Geneva Accords.” I, too, belonged to this movement. We were demanding the implementation of the Accords. I was working with him in the movement. You know that that Movement was suppressed...

What was the atmosphere like for you, for a member of the Resistance, during the Diem regime? Could you recall that period with some details?

We conducted our struggle for the implementation of the Geneva Accords and the reunification of the country in Saigon for a period of time. But our movement was suppressed. And the president of our movement, Mr. Nguyen Huu Tho himself, along with other leaders of the movement, was arrested. So at that time we went underground since the movement was being suppressed and we knew that the French stubbornly did not want to execute those Accords.

I remained in the city for a while. But afterwards when the repression became harsher, I had to withdraw from the city with other comrades and went to the countryside. At first, we stayed in Gia Dinh province which is in the immediate vicinity of Saigon. From that location we carried on with our activities.

Could you recall the atmosphere during that period? There are some who say that this was the darkest period. What happened? What did you see? What did you experience?

It is possible to call the period from '58 to '59 the years of terror, absolute terror. The Diem machine went after all the former members of the Resistance. I, too, was on the blacklist since I was among the leaders of the Movement of Struggle for the Implementation of the Geneva Accords.

I had left the city. But in the countryside, everywhere, repression was carried out. People were terrorized by those criminal measures. You have certainly heard of the guillotines being taken from place to place. There was panic and terror among the population at that time. So it was difficult for us to live among the population at that time. At times, we had to go into the forests and stayed there.

When did you come out? You went north? But before going north did you carry on some activities?

Yes, I did. But at that time we also sought to carry on political education, to explain to the people that Diem’s policy was a policy dictated by the Americans that it revealed weakness and not strength. We explained. We were also already preparing the formation of the Front. We had seen the French trample on the Geneva Accords. We had seen the very obvious arrival of the Americans. So we were already explaining to the population that the real enemy was the Americans. We were explaining, but under very difficult conditions because people were afraid of being terrorized.

We went on with our activities here and there until the end of December of '60. At that point I was summoned to...at that time we had ties with comrades all over the country...I was ordered to go back to the Headquarters of the Resistance which was then located in Tay Ninh province. So, by the end of December of '60, I was called to Headquarters. The comrades told me I had been appointed a member of the Central Committee of the NLF and my task was to carry on activities at the international level. So in '62 I began to go outside of the country and carry on activities in the field of international relations.

When you went to Tay Ninh in December '60 for the founding of the Front, were comrades from the North present?

Essentially it was the National Front. Essentially it was the Organization of the Resistance of the South.

There were ties with people in the North?

Of course we always had ties, even during the most difficult moments.

Allow me to go forward and talk a little of 1968 when you went to Paris for the talks. They started in May '68.

In November rather. There are two...

Bilateral talks began in May. Then later with the Front. It was in December, November...

In November.

Did you, when you participated in the...When you participated in the Paris negotiations, did you, at the time, have hope that they would result in something?

Of course. We had hope that the struggle on all, on the three fronts, the diplomatic front, the political front and the military front, would help us reach our goal.

As a representative of the PRG, what were your feelings after 1969 when there were secret conversations, negotiations, directly between Le Duc Tho and Kissinger? Did you feel a little left out?

No. In reality, we were...we discussed among ourselves in order to confront our aggressors. There were discussions among ourselves.

Did you know about the secret negotiations from the beginning?

Yes. Of course. And as I told you, we were not just informed. We discussed among ourselves about our course of action and how to fight our aggressors.

And you felt that it was the right method to begin those secret negotiations at the same time?

Yes. Of course. We thought...When the secret negotiations began, we felt that those discussions were conducive to the negotiations, to the goal of the negotiations. For these reasons, we felt that those negotiations were necessary.

I am going to ask you a last question. There are some who, looking backward, say that, maybe, in the early '60s, it could have been possible to find a solution so that South Vietnam could become neutral. What do you think of that opinion?

We're going to cut it now because that bell is going, we have...

What do you think of this idea?

You know that in the program of the Front...The objectives of the Front reflected our idea, our intention. What were the aims of the Front? The aims of the Front were the withdrawal of the Americans, our independence, and the neutrality of the South. And after that, we felt that the next step would be the reunification of the country. That was precisely the political line of the Front. We really wanted that.

Okay, that's very good.

Thank you very much. It is truly...