When you started Red Bird one of the things you described to us was that it was a liberating situation for you because you didn't have to demo, you didn't have to get approval from anyone to make the songs. Can you describe that for us, how it was different from the demo process that other songwriters were going through?

I think there would be, as a song writer, there would be nothing greater than to have your own label which is what we, we started our own label out of the Brill Building called Red Bird Records with myself and Ellie and of course Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller being the main supplier. And, that, that liberates the writer to write anything you want to write: you don't have to bring it to another producer or another A and R guy at a label and you can write songs that may not demo as something that someone else might want to record but yet you believe that the public will like them even, even the songs we were writing with Phil. We weren't making demos we knew that they were coming out on a label which again frees you up to, from writing what sounds like the typical song - you can write anything you want because there's no one to tell you you can't. You have a direct, it, I look at it like the direct line to the public an open, open channel with nobody, no other geniuses between you and the public you can just do it.

What would be a good example of that?

Take a song like "Leader of the Pack" which was a mini operetta. That of course we did with George Shadow Morton. But I, I can't imagine making a demo of that song without making the full master with all the sound effects and all the drama in it. And even if we did make that demo that sounded like that record, where do you go with it? You, you have to start a group, you have to put out that record by the Shangri-las on your own label. And it, it, it's like you make the movie you want to make and you have your own studio.

As a producer, how would you assess the Wall of Sound?

Assess?

How do you describe it? How did you respond to it I guess as the time? When Jerry and Mike talked about it, they like clarity in their music ... how did you feel about it at the time?

When, when, we spent a lot of time with Phil in the studio and I, I, I really enjoyed watching him in the process creating his, his Wall of Sound and, ah, the technical of it was great. The, you know, six guys all playing the same part on acoustic guitar and doubling up on all the instruments and kind of making that over tone, wash, mushy sound which, which had such a character of its, was so unique as opposed to the very definable sound of most records where you can pick out each instruments. And, ah, I, I, I think it was just great, I really liked it. It, it's a very, it's a great background for a song.

Can you tell us how the recording, "Iko Iko" came to be.

"Iko Iko" has its basis in a, I think a New Orleans funeral song. They used to march behind the coffins with umbrellas and, ah, I'm not sure exactly what it means but the, the Dixie Cups were from New Orleans and they kind of knew that song. Joe Jones was their manager and, ah, guide, shall we say. And, ah, the record came about, let's see, I think I was playing a screwdriver on a plastic ashtray on that one and a bongle box that Ellie and I brought back our honeymoon in Jamaica and, ah, it was very spontaneous kind of event in the studio. And, ah, I think again that, that kind of freedom to create for your own label comes across with you when you hear it. It, it, ah, it's certainly nothing you'd plan to do. You know there were no written arrangements, let's put it that way.

Could you describe Shadow Morton, your first impression of him?

Shadow Morton is, is also one of those characters, he's a real character, ahm. We did the Shangri-las with, with George and by and large the, it's his influence to the songs and, ah, and even the, the sound was certainly largely his influence. You could be in a conversation with him, a couple of people and you look over and talk to him, look away and look back and he's gone. And literally he disappears for days. And, and, ah, I, I named him Shadow because of that and it stuck. And he's one of those people who really loves his nickname. He, I think he says his mother calls him George and that's about it. But that's probably a cool nickname. After "Leader of the Pack" was a success he bought me a motorcycle. That was my first of thirteen. And only one really bad accident - not bad.

You describe him as kind of a James Dean character. Can you tell us what his characteristics were?

George to me was, was James Dean. He, he still is but certainly then. He's very handsome: perfect features and more hair than he needed and, ah, and, and in a, in a, he's cool. George was cool. And, ah, he, he was the local James Dean. That, that, that's what he was. I don't know if it was in his head but that's the way he came off to me and legitimate, legitimate. It was absolutely nothing put on about it because he, he, he has stayed that way over the years. He still disappears too by the way. And, and not only does he disappear, he doesn't show up - that we know of.

How did "Remember Walking in the Sand" ever get made? Were you involved in that?

Oh sure, yeah.

Please tell us the story.

The Shangri-las records were really audio operas and, and it was such fun using the sound effects. Remember "Walking in the Sand" has, ah, sea gulls in it and that's me going [Chirping sound] there's our sea gulls on cue just where and when we need them. And I don't think, I think if someone tried to do that today it, I don't know, they'd probably walk out of the control room because it's not cool but we were sure having fun. No laughing.

You told the story was how in "Leader of the Pack" you sat with Mary Weisse. Can you describe what you were going for with her and how you did that and her response?

Mary was the lead of the Shangri-las and to my recollection she was about 16 years-old when she sang the lead of that very dramatic song. I'm not sure but I think we told her it was a real story and somewhere there was this young man laying dead in a coffin who actually got killed on a motorcycle because he couldn't be with his, with his girl. And, ah, I have this picture of me sitting in the studio across the mike from her with tears streaming down her face as she emoted a great performance. And, ah, with that story in mind, the next time you hear that record, ah, it, it will come alive for you and you can realize that, ah, first of all, the, a song is really a script for a singer as, as, you know, a, a script for an actor, the song is to the singer. And, ah, it didn't happen to her but you sure believed she was the one who stood and screamed - look out, look out, look out.

Was it a controversial song when it was released? I know in England they labeled it death disc.

Over the years I've been involved, I don't know what it is, with, with death songs. My first hit was a song called "Tell Laura I Love Her" where, it's about this, this young guy who enters a stock car race to, ah, win money to buy his, his girl stuff to get married, I guess an engagement ring and, and presents and stuff. And, and it just hurt me. That song went through Parliament in England before they could play it. And when "Leader of the Pack" came out, they called it, the death disc. And, ah, I guess that's, that's important to the adults who write the articles and so on and so forth for them to say things about it. I, I had a, a hit with a song called "Shoot Them Up Baby" which to me meant, shoot them up, have a good time and there was a big article about it being a drug song. So, ah, I don't know. I guess people look to be negative.

I, I, I have heard that, ah, "Leader of the Pack" is referred to as the death disc, which, which is good especially with the two d's, we do love alliteration. Ah, I think it was in 1964 I had my first hit in 1961 with another death disc called "Tell Laura I Love Her". And I felt, ah, it, it really, it really got to me when I, when I found out that they were thinking of banning it in England. And it actually went through Parliament and it was decided that they could play it. Ah, in between "Tell Laura I Love Her" and "Leader ... The Leader of the Pack" was an, was an ob., not everything I write is a hit and this one wasn't, it was called "The Water Was Red". And strangely enough it was kind of the opening of "Jaws" set to music. It was about a couple who went to the beach, ah, I don't know if it was at night as in "Jaws" but let's assume it was and the girl went in the water and was killed by a shark “and the water was red.” And her boy friend, a scuba diver, had his scuba knife with him and, ah, understandably he was very upset. He dives into the ocean, finds this shark and kills it. “And the water was red, once again.” Ah, I, I think I crossed some line with that one and, ah, it was one of the ones that wasn't a hit but, ah, maybe there is a fascination with those death discs.

As you said the Shangri-las songs were big production numbers. How would you describe them?

Go back to the opera thing. The Shangri-la songs were audio operas is I think the best way to describe them. I, it, it makes you use your imagination. You, you, the sound effects bring you to the beach and walking in the sand and, ah, bring you to that corner where Jimmie dies on a motorcycle with, by, with the motorcycle sounds. And there was a, a song called "Last Train to Clarksville" and surprisingly enough we used the train sound effect but it, it was, it, it's radio. I mean radio used to do that. They used to put on plays. And this was a musical play for radio.

Are you surprised by your songs longevity? When you were writing, did you think you were writing classics?

When we were creating the songs we, we were creating we were very aware that our audience again were, were teenage girls but I never really thought that if we can say music, make the analogy of music to food, I never considered them being like meat and potatoes and stick to the ribs, it was more like desert, candy, a treat something that would pass through and be gone. And it, one of the thrills is that to find out that what you remember are the treats and, ah, later on meeting the, the 9 year-old and the 16 year-old girl as adults and to see that those songs were so important to them has been really, really rewarding.

Can you tell us how that song came to be, the writing of that song?

Boy, I really, I don't know what I'd say about that.

Have any memories of the actual writing of the song?

Well the, the mid sixties were crazy, crazy days: we were flying out to California to work with Phil and jumping in the studio with him, back to New York for writing songs with for, for Red Bird Records and writing songs outside of both of those arenas for Leslie Gore for instance with "Look of Love" and other people. And, ah, it was, we were cranking them out really and not paying a whole lot of attention to any one particular song or artist. It was very, very natural flow and, ah, and I think the volume of material that, and, and hits, if I might say, in, in like a three year span attests to that and attests to the fact that, ah, that youthful energy we all had, ah, came out in, in a fun way. The word fun keeps coming back. We were having fun.

And part of, part of the process for us was the production of the record which was another, another great thing for a songwriter to not, to have full control. Not only would you have your own label but you can produce the record yourself. And, and the production process was a lot of fun. It was I think maybe more creative than it is today because again it was Wright Brothery and we could make up sounds and bang on stuff and we never went in a studio, very, very rarely did we go in the studio with an arrangement. We would need it for strings and horns but for the rhythm section, we'd play them a song and we'd make up the parts, lock them in and, and go for it. And, ah, as a matter of fact I remember one session we finished early, we had an hour left with, an hour left of musician time. And Ellie went out in the hall and as I recall it we wrote "Hanky-Panky" in the hall because it was a simple song. Let's write something quick, go back in and cut it and we'll use it on a B side, ah, not knowing of course that Tommy James was going to hear it on the B side of a record and say, hmm, I think I'll cut it. And that's, that's, those, that's one of the great bonuses and blessings of B sides.

Talk about that in terms of the British invasion, a lot of the songs that came back?

Besides Tommy James hearing "Hanky-Panky" on a B side of a record, ah, Manford Mann the group or the person heard "Hanky-Panky" on the B side of..

Start that again.

Besides Tommy James hearing "Hanky-Panky" on the B side of, ah, one of our records I think it was Raindrops record, Manford Mann heard "Do Wa Ditty" on the back of, ah, I think it was an Exciters record. And the first Ellie and I heard of that was when it was released and went to number one. Tha… that's a freebie, in the dictionary next to freebie is a picture of Manford Mann singing "Hanky-Panky", ah, singing "Do Wa Ditty".

Can you talk about the idea of how people thought that British groups came over and commanded the charts. Yet they were using songs that all you guys had written.

When the British invasion was, was a tide of young British boys with long hair singing songs that they made up initially. But very quickly after that we, we found that they really wanted the songs that were coming out of New York and, ah, they were finding them and then after a while people were writing them for them. And the producers, the British producers would come over regularly on shopping expeditions to find songs to go back with and cut. Micky Most comes to mind as, as one who recognized a certain, ah, commercial song quality coming out of the New York scene as, as well I'm sure as the Detroit and the West Coast scene. But, ah, there was a commodity for both countries actually.