Can you tell me, Brigadier, your first impressions on arriving in Saigon?

When we arrived in Saigon, if I remember exactly, the first week of October 1945. And as our ship was approaching [unintelligible] we had to wait there until we, uh, the pilots would come from Saigon to take us up the river. And while we were there, the French warship, Cardinal Richelieu was also there.

Anyhow we went up the river and we arrived in Saigon around about noon. We were just preparing to disembark when we had suddenly received orders not to do so that day, but we were to disembark next day in early in the morning, as the local people wanted to give us a big reception.

So, we uh stayed put on the ship for the night and I think about next morning about nine o'clock we all dressed up and we marched through the streets of Saigon. And I remember having marched through the main street through Rue Catinat. There were hundreds and thousands of people on the roads and on the rooftops, cheering us, even showering flowers on us that day.

What was the reason they were doing that? Why were they so pleased to see you?

Well, I su—suppose and it came up later they were receiving us because they thought they were, we were, their liberators and uh after, ah, so many long years of subjugation by the French, they were going to be free. And this is exactly what they thought, and uh, we were, the day we were received, it proved that they were looking forward to the liberation from the French.

And what went wrong? When did things start to change?

Well you see we were there for about... I think that within two or three days things changed completely. For the first two days we could do nothing wrong. We could go anywhere, we were received very well, we made new friends. Then the French troops disembarked there.

If I remember exactly, they were the first contingent was... from the uh General Leclerc’s uh, troops which had come from North Africa because there was a cavalry unit there, with young French officers. And they, local people thought that they could have never landed in Saigon but for the protection given by the British land forces and the Indian Army troops there.

Why couldn't they have arrived? Why not?

Because there was uh... they thought they could... wouldn't have allowed them to land there. I mean they would have been fight with them. And resistance to... they would have put a lot of resistance. In this case they didn't put up resistance, on the other hand, they received us cordially.

What was the uh, sort of instructions you were given by General Gracey when you saw him? Uh, you said you... you said you had a chat with him.

You see, the... As I said that after two, three days the whole thing changed. All of a sudden there was shooting, firing, grenade throwing and lot of fighting at night, we could hear, and we had to set up all our local defenses wherever we were staying there. And we were told that these, uh, the local nationalists, had taken umbrage to the French troops landing there, and they had been fighting and taking on shooting at the people, the light forces.

But you mentioned also that you had a chat with General Gracey...

That was later, I think it was sometime in November. He... we were all collected in the units at the race course in Saigon. And he came to us. He used to come to our units very often. And he was spending an evening with us, and he spoke to all of us, and he said, "Well, we had come here to take the surrender of the Japanese, that job has been accomplished, and if there is any fighting to be done with the local people with the French, then let them do their own fighting." And he said, well while you go and have a pretty good time provided you don’t get a beating. (Laughs.)

What about the role of the Japanese forces? Do you think that the Japanese forces were crucial in re-establishing order in that period?

I think they were submissive. Whatever they were told, they will do absolutely obediently. Whatever the orders were given, they will they will carry out right to the last word.

Was there any animosity amongst the people towards the Japanese? Did you notice anything like that?

Yes there was. There was. Definitely, because they were people that we met in Saigon, they definitely were unhappy, and very happy that the Japanese occupation had ended.

What was the attitude of the French civilians that you came across towards your presence? Did they have a feeling of joy or...?

Well to start with, we were friendly, we attended our... we had our parties, we were, we went to the units and everything was alright. But I think gradually relations were strained. So much so that the, as I said in the General Gracey now, have good time, let them do their own fighting.

We, the, we had planned a very big Christmas party on 24th December. And the French, they protested. They lodged a protest that they were fighting and that we couldn't go and have a big party of that sort of magnitude in Saigon. And the party was cancelled. The relations were not very very happy. Not then.

What caused the tension between the two parties?

I, uh, can't say. But uh because the French took all of our equipment when we left, everything was handed over to the French.

What was the level of fighting after things went wrong, uh, after you first arrived? What sort of incidents characterized...

You see it was grenade throwing, fighting at random, and uh, taking people on lonely jeep you know if jeep is going then, of course the people there, they'll right throw a grenade, and shoot at it. Like that, and about sporadic, sort of fighting, and things like that, killing... went on, both in Saigon and Cho Lon.

How organized were the Viet Minh at that point?

I do not know. I can't remember whether it was... but it was definitely went on there was no end to it. And that was from the first week of October.

Did you have any feelings for how much support the Viet Minh had amongst the population at large in that initial period?

You see, the people we met, I said, were mostly they were either Chinese, or the French, or the uh... sort of Indochinese French. We came across Vietnamese, very few Vietnamese as such, who were working for us as, labor, or workers... but the undercurrent was there which we learned through our interpreter, uh that they were certainly looking forward to have their own rule in the country. That was universally thought.

What about later observations from Vietnamese when you went back in the 1950s? You made some comments before...

Yes. You see, in when I was in the China again, in 1956 - '57, and, I happened to stay in Hanoi for about eleven months, we... uh, I did come in contact with many senior officers there also. And recalling the events of Saigon and the General Gracey’s sort of contact there, they, they were of the view that they were taken in by General Gracey's declaration that we had come to take only the surrender of the Japanese.

We had actually, they thought it was a covert plan to land the French troops there in force. The one thing was that that the French could have not have gone there in such a short time because they were nowhere near the opera... ummmm, the theater operation at that time.

They were probably in North Africa, and whereas we were in Burma... you see, one brigade was flown in by air, and we followed by sea, and ours was the first ship to arrive there in first week of October. Even... even from Burma we could arrive there only first week of October. So naturally they thought that we were there only to get the... enable the French to come back and rule, that sort of feeling.

What was the atmosphere like in Saigon during those first few days, apart from the celebration?

Very good. The... the, excellent we went on shopping, the markets were... I saw the shops, what uh, the glass shops, or the wine shops and they were full. There was shortage of food, sugar was just not available. And we did help out our friends, civilians, with sugar from our own rations. Otherwise, uhhh the people looked happy, relieved. Quite a lot of people look relieved and the life was very very normal. The people were filling up the streets, not as much as I said saw later. Comparatively Saigon was then peaceful, quiet.

And generally the officers and the troops were happy to be there, they didn't have any problems apart from...?

Well, you see as far as the uh...

Ya. Carry on.

Right. If you could just go into more detail about your actual arrival in Saigon the atmosphere and the comments you heard.

As I said, you see we disembarked early in the morning. And we marched through the streets of Saigon to our respective destination or whatever sites we were given. I... and the people, they were all over, everybody seemed to have turned out to greet us, and welcome us on the roads. They even showered flowers, as I said before. And later on, I don't know whether it was just a rumor or gossip, that the people thought that probably some of the Russian troops had arrived, because some of our troops were wearing cap comforters, which are woolen round caps, which we used to wear in Burma. Possibly that too, that may be one reason. But generally, I think the expectation was that we were their liberators. As the Allies had been saying over the radio and over the... in their propaganda.

What made the Vietnamese people change their mind about that?

I think they felt cheated that uh French troops had landed there. There was no reason for them to land again in, Indo-, Indochina. What if they were to be liberated because the protection... like land forces, light land forces were already there. And I think that triggered the actual issue which was the flashpoint — the landing of the French troops in Saigon. Definitely. Because first three days, we had a very good time, no trouble at all, we were welcomed everywhere.

How many French troops came, and did they take up active guard duties, patrols, things like that?

As they came in, they were taking all the duty from the Indian troops. You see? The uh... I do not know may have been of brigade strength, but I definitely remember a cavalry regiment, because I had some young French friends in there. But they were fanning out of Saigon, they were not inside Saigon, the French troops.

And naturally they were taking over all the duties that Indian troops were doing. That is how General Gracey had said, now, we will let them take over and do their own fighting and we will just sit there, we have done... seen a rough time in Burma for the last two, three years.

What about the attitude of the different classes of people in Vietnam? Did that differ very much towards the troops in their eyes?

Well, I think the... uh, the French and the... they welcomed us. The Chinese were I think indifferent. And as I said, local population, although there were very restricted contact with them, they were expecting to be liberated, and have their self rule, than to be, have the French troops again in there with them.

What about fraternization between the Vietnamese and the allied soldiers, was there any of that or not?

You see, very little. Firstly, the fraternization was mostly with the, either with the French or with the natives, and to some extent if they were any Vietnamese, there were a lot of people who had mixed Vietnamese-Chinese. They were the people we... even some Filipinos were there. We... they became very, very friendly. Indians were there — shopkeepers. But, I see bulk of the population — Vietnamese population — we just didn't come in contact with them as such.

And did you notice the economic conditions of the people? What was the economic situation like, do you think, at the end of the war?

Well, in the end of war, as I said, I found personally the shops were full of glass and silk, and wines. As I said food was possibly in short, especially sugar. The markets were full. One could go in the evening and buy anything out of these, uh...you know, they always had markets in the evening about four or five o'clock.

I'll ask you that question again, but don't say, "as I said” because it'll be taken as fresh comment, so what was the economic situation like on your arrival in Saigon?

The economic situation was not bad. Food was uh, possibly was in short supply, especially sugar. Otherwise, to me things didn't look bad at all. They were, of course, relieved. The people looked slightly famished, because if we give a party they ate a hell of a lot of food, and if only saw some good food out there. But I don't think there was really starved over there.

What about political activity after the return of the French? Was there any open political activity or do you think it was all underground?

There were some big banners, and I was told they were from the nationalist people protesting which were found on the streets of Saigon. I couldn't understand the language, therefore I... but there was definitely big posters up. I remember these posters were put up there.

What was the feeling of the Vietnamese towards the arrival of the Allied troops later when you saw them in Hanoi? What was their comments then?

Well, they... as I discussed with the uh, various sort of senior officers in Hanoi, they felt they were cheated by General Gracey’s pretension uh, saying that they were there to liberate the Vietnamese people from the Japanese. Actually what happened was it enabled the French to land in Saigon. And the trouble started which lasted for another thirty or thirty-five years.

What was the relationship between the French and the Allies after the initial period of arrival?

It was strained. The strain at one point to the extent that uh the our [unintelligile] had to cancel the Christmas Party which was fixed for 24th December. Because French had lodged a very strong protest, that where they were fighting, we couldn't have a party of our own officers.

And the incidents involving your troops and the Vietnamese, how organized were they?

Well, there were no... there had been a sort of organized, sort of warfare going on there. They were on fixed duties there, patrolling own certain areas. And uh, there was no sort of night fighting with the Viet Minh or whatever they called them at that time...

What fighting there was? ...what...?

Whatever it was guerrilla attacks. You see, they did attack, they did throw grenades on our jeeps and trucks and then we protected, we took our anti... we took a lot of precautions against these things by putting wire gauze over our jeeps and the weapon carriers. Also, we were not allowed to go by ourselves; we had to be in party of at least three people armed, even if we went in a jeep.

Were you personally the subject of any terrorist attack or in danger like that?

Well, one night grenades were thrown at our building but luckily no damage was done. That was only once. It was just after these three days, the first experience... but after that, we have nothing happen.

Where did the Viet Minh get their arms and ammunition from?

I don't know, but they did do a lot of shooting. Because our troops were not shooting, I'm sure, to that extent. And this grenade throwing.

Were you aware of the presence of any American officers in Saigon when you were there, the OSS people?

No. We came in contact with French, we came in contact with Japanese people both army and navy and of course our own troops.

And what about the Japanese serving under the Allies. Can you explain what happened there?

Well, the Japanese were relieved, true to their sort of submission. They were very submissive, docile, they carried out all the orders absolutely last word. There was no trouble at all from the Japanese, and while they gave 100 percent cooperation to the allies. On our low level, for example, the unit I was commanding, we had a perfect cooperation from them, they gave us all the help.

Do you think the Japanese were a crucial link in maintaining law and order?

Initially, they were. But once uh, the other troops were there and then the... this 20th division took over complete and entire responsibility and Japanese were withdrawn. Maybe some odd places the Japanese continued to maintain the law and order, I do not know. But in Saigon, definitely we took over completely, the situation was in our control.

Were there some pockets in Saigon that were safer than others, or some that were protected?

Oh yes, yes. There were pockets in Saigon which were unsafe, very very unsafe at night.

Whereabouts were they in particular?

There were areas in Cho Lon mostly the areas are from the road going from Saigon to Cho Lon. On that area. And then on the outskirts of Saigon, but the dead center of the city near the Notre Dame Cathedral, around about that area, Rue Catinat and that area was very very peaceful. No trouble, hardly any trouble there.

Did the Viet Minh differentiate between Allied troops and French troops?