American society in the wake of the Vietnam War

VIETNAM
Arthur Egendorf/mc
SR #
Tape 4, side 1
Um, hello there transcription fans. Um, we're doing Arthur Egendorf. E g e n d o r f. And today is the eighth of July, 1983. And this is for the Vietnam project, show number thirteen, legacies.
(tape clicks) Okay, ready? Speed.
(clapstick) Sound nineteen.

Interviewer:

Okay, Arthur, let's start out with the war and its effects, as you see it, as you saw it.

Egendorf:

Well, what it really comes down to is that the main effect of the war is that it is still going on. It's an undigested experience for a whole generation.

And, what I mean by that is that it's not that everybody's still thinking about the war, still talking about it, but if you sit down with people and start asking questions, you find that there's still a lot of conflict and confusion and pain, resentment, the kind of self justifying attitudes and blaming, the things that make it a haunted experience, or a haunting experience. And, that's not going to fit now.

Interviewer:

That's all right.

Egendorf:

Um, (breathes) can I say some more about that? This isn't just for veterans, although when you sit down and talk to a lot of guys, you'll find that there's a feeling that most of the country still doesn't know what went on over there, and basically doesn't care. But it's not just limited to veterans, because a lot of the guys who didn't go, whether they were involved in protests or standing on the side lines, still have a mix of feelings that are some combination of relief that they were spared and sympathy for the guys who went, but also guilt that they got off so easy. And sometimes, secret envy that they missed out on a really tough experience.

Interviewer:

Uh...

Egendorf:

Can I say something more, too? Or is this too much. Because I want to, I want to say that, that, um, all the talk about, that basically what it comes down to for the country as a whole is that it's, that the big casualty was not just the veterans. They're really a symptom of what happened to the country as a whole, and that is that it's been a blow to our sense of common purpose.

And you can see this in many ways. From the declining voter participation, to fragmentation of of uh interest groups, and declining productivity, and the kind of increasing polarization in political debates for the last fifteen years. All of which have a lot of causes, but the conflicts of the war years are one of their basic sources.

Reconciliation of the war

Interviewer:

Well, given all of that, what, uh, given these causes, what, uh, uh, how do you see the possibilities of any kind of reconciliation, and what are the dimensions of reconciliation?

Egendorf:

(breathes heavily) Okay, um, what do I want to say here? You want somethin' crisp. So (pause) (meow) Hi, Greebie. Um well, I'll just run it and see what happens. I think the important thing (meow) to recognize after a war like this...

The important thing to recognize, that alter a war like this, nobody came out smelling like a rose. Uh, I have a, I have a buddy who didn't go who called me one day and said, uh, "Look, I, I finally have to talk to you because every time I see you, I feel uncomfortable. The day I went down for my draft exam, I took a lot of drugs so I looked freaky and they wouldn't take me, and every time I see you, I'm reminded that somebody went in my place."

And I had a long talk with him about that, and, uh, I told him that I signed up for the things that I thought would make best use of my own talents, which was intelligence, only to come back a few years later and realize that a lot of guys had a much harder time than I did.

And after that, I got to know them and found out that a lot of them feel guilty that they came back alive so, 'cause so many other guys ended up dying, so, um, the first thing to recognize, as I said, is that, uh, nobody ends up feeling clean after an experience like this.

And that, uh, one of the first steps is to recognize the need for forgiveness, not only of each other, but of ourselves. And that doesn't mean that we have to agree with each other all the time, but it means to get beyond the kind of rigidity and the polarization and the blaming and the sense of, um, you know, having to justify what we did or didn't do, which is the basis of so much of the problem of, of the last fifteen years.

And an important element of this, of course, is the willing to ackno willingness to acknowledge what were our mistakes, and I think with the openness to that, with beginning to listen to one another in the sense that's beginning to be made by a lot of people about the war oh, I don't like any of this; this is too hairy. (Sigh)

Interviewer:

Cut.

(Clapstick) Sound 20.

Egendorf:

Well, the first step for reconciliation is to recognize that people are in many different positions regarding the war. I mean, you talk to some guys, and they'll say, "Healing, from the war? Who needs to heal? I'm fine."

Uh, so that the, the first place is, is a lot of avoidance even of the issue, that there's even something there to be dealt with. Further along, you find some guys who are very stuck in blaming people. You know, the government did wrong, or the business is what, you know, led us astray in Vietnam, or it was the protesters, or it was the, or the hawks, or blaming people and not having a grip of their own lives, let alone what the issues are more generally.

And then further along you find guys who've let in a lot of the conflict and pain, but are stuck either blaming themselves or feeling like they're victimized by it. Traumatized. Like there's nothing they can do but suffer.

And then, further along still, you begin to find veterans who've gotten on top of the experience enough to talk about "my war," or "our war," and "what we did over there," and that's the point where you can begin to see the guys who are willing to see beyond their own limited attitudes or opinions about what happened, and willing to listen to whatever the other side has to say that makes sense. And I think that's where reconciliation, on that edge, starts to make a lot of sense.

Interviewer:

Uh, okay. That is not precisely the anatomy of the veteran that we...

Egendorf:

No.

Unity of the Vietnam veteran experience

Interviewer:

...were talking about. The small town…

Egendorf:

No. Right.

Interviewer:

Could you give us that, uh...

Egendorf:

Right.

Interviewer:

...in brief form?

Egendorf:

You know, often people ask about what the effects of the war are on veterans, and the truth is that there are many effects. And, uh, one way to see this is that, that there, Vietnam veterans are as varied as the whole country. Some guys came home to small, to small towns and a brass band, some guys went home to an unemployment line in a, the inner city, some guys went home to a, a college campus and their old buddies.

And, uh, what we've got is a range from really negative effects on the stereotyped veteran who's now become the star of stage and screen, to, um, the guys who've really strengthened themselves through the experience.

Max Cleland, the Vietnam veteran who was the head of the Veterans' Administration during the Carter presidency wrote a book and took a line from Ernest Hemingway. It goes, "Life breaks us all, and many of us are stronger at the broken places."

Interviewer:

Very good. Uh, what is the uh, what does the "dark brotherhood" mean?

Egendorf:

There's a flip side to this issue about the differences among veterans, and it is that underneath the, the, the varied backgrounds and attitudes and opinions, there's some common themes in the veteran experience. One of them is that no matter where guys stand on the war, you'll find an unusual respect for service. Even guys who were against the war want to see people give something of themselves.

You'll see a kind of, um, caring when you scratch the surface of a vet. You find a guy who really does care deeply. Even if it's, you know, going out on Saturday and coaching the little, little league 'cause he loves kids.

And, I think there's something else there that sensitive people pick up when they're around a guy who went through that war, and it's a kind of personal depth, what I, and I call that the "dark brotherhood," the sense of having really been through something, come up against the abyss.

For some, it's meant a spiritual awakening, but for others, it just means a sensitivity that, um, around the edge of how things appear in the world there's a, there's a, always that sharp precipice where you can fall off the edge, 'cause we've been there and we've seen what human beings can do.

The shell shock diagnosis

Interviewer:

Uh, there, there are a couple of uh, specific issues that have been agitating a lot of uh, veterans, and gotten a lot of attention. I, I'd be interested in your brief comments on each of them. One is PTSD and the other, of course, is Agent Orange.

Egendorf:

Well, we finally now have had an official diagnosis for something that's going on among a minority of veterans, and really, it's a resuscitation, uh, of something that's been around for a long time; we used to call it "shell shock," or "combat fatigue," "traumatic neurosis," and now "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder." And it's useful in professional settings to have a name for it and very specific descriptions.

There are also pitfalls to a lot of the public talk about a diagnosis, 'cause it leads a lot of guys astray, makes them think that there's, there's carrying around something like a germ, or something they've got they can't do anything about when really what we're talking about is, uh, not the cards your holding but how you play your hand.

And so, I think what we need to get the emphasis onto is that, that uh, whatever cards may have been dealt to different people, it, um, uh, uh, dah, that's, (voice faltering) I can't use that line, that's, that's, I, (voiceless chuckle), threw that one in to, uh, left field.

Interviewer:

Just pick it up in min, mid, midstream there somewhere.

Egendorf:

Okay. See, there, there's also a pitfall to a lot of the publicity about a new diagnosis. 'Makes guys think that they, they got something, like a germ they're carrying around.' Really what we're talking about is how they're handling their lives, and the important message to get across is that wherever guys happen to be with that, uh, treatment is often useful and can work, whether it's rapping out with other veterans in counseling centers or finding their way to a pastor or somebody else who they trust to begin working on whatever it is that's still left over, either from the war or in their everyday lives now.

The tragedy of Agent Orange

Interviewer:

Uh, you said earlier, in an earlier conversation that one of the unseen, important roles in this whole process is...

Egendorf:

We...

Interviewer:

...being played by...

Egendorf:

You didn't... Yeah. Right. And you didn't get Agent Orange out of it.

Interviewer:

I didn't get Agent Orange...

Egendorf:

So, let me see something... uh, yes, succinct about Agent Orange. Well, I think the sad truth about the whole Agent Orange business is that we haven't heard the worst yet, and whether it's new, personal tragedies here in this country, not only with veterans but civilians who've been in communities where toxic wastes up...

Interviewer:

...Agent Orange because we're...

Egendorf:

Okay?

Egendorf:

I'm writing that. (chuckle)

Sound 21.

Interviewer:

Agent Orange.

Egendorf:

Right. I'll let her sit down first. (pause) The sad news about Agent Orange, I think, is that the news is going to get even worse, and some of that is going to be personal tragedies among veterans, but also among the civilians in this country who live near the sites where toxic wastes like Agent Orange have been dumped.

I think the even more tragic story will come out when we've gotten past our wounded pride and our haughtiness and re-established relations with the people of Indochina and begin to discover what the aftereffects have been of the use of, uh, poisons like Agent Orange and, and other agents, uh, there in that country as an indiscriminate part of the war policy.

Women and identity in relation to the warrior

Interviewer:

Okay. Now let's go on to the role of women, the, uh, that you mentioned. There's a kind of a hidden...

Egendorf:

Yeah. The least told story of all of veterans' homecoming has to do... I goofed that. The least told... The story that you hear least of all is about the important role that women have played in veterans' homecoming. More than any other single group, the veterans', uh, lives have been affected by their mothers, wives, girlfriends, lovers, who've been there, either as the support, the "stand by your man" kind of traditional woman who's there in the background, but also, in a whole, new contemporary role of leading and pointing the way, the way of opening one's heart, being able to ventilate emotions, things that traditionally have been much more natural among women than among men, and we're seeing now spread, on, a mu—much more widely among the veterans, particularly of this war.

Interviewer:

Uh, does this relate in any way to the warrior spirit? And where does that take us?

Egendorf:

Hmm. Let me see. You want an intro for that, or I should just launch in and you'll edit it wherever? Yeah.

Something very interesting is happening with regard to the warrior spirit. I mean, traditionally, we think of it as, uh, serving God and country. But recently in books like, uh, by, like those by, in recent books by authors like Carlos Castaneda, we see a whole new definition of the warrior where Carlos Castaneda says that, uh, where for ordinary people everything is either a blessing or a curse, for a warrior, everything is a challenge.

And what we're seeing, more and more, is that an ancient tradition where guys have gone through war from a few in every era, from, from sacrificing life because you believe your side is right, to serving life, because you realize there's truth on both sides of any conflict.

That sort of phenomenon is happening more and more after the war in Vietnam. And, again, it's still only a minority of veterans who're involved in this, but it's an influential minority.

For example, the War Memorial to the Vietnam veterans was conceived and brought into being by a small group of veterans whose dedication to serve was just as strong as ever, but what they were serving was the cause of healing.

Interviewer:

Um, do you feel at this point ready to talk about your own experience?

Egendorf:

Sure. Run it and see what, what do you want to know?

Interviewer:

Uh, well how did, how and why did you go to Vietnam? What did you take with you, what did you bring back?

Egendorf:

Hmm. Well, uh, I was educated at Harvard in the early '60s and one of my professors, Dr. Kissinger, wasn't known at the time, and one of the things he said was that, uh, "I don't see how we can do with the borders open and only 50,000 men what the French couldn't do with the borders closed and half a million."

And so I took that to mean that people like me, educated as I was, had a responsibility to the plague and some of the unfortunate tasks that a great nation has, is at times confronted with.

And I was studying in Europe at the time, after college, when my draft board said, you know, it's time for me to go, and I thought the honorable thing to do was to enlist for something that I thought would be of constructive use of time, which was, uh, Intelligence.

Turned out I was sent to Vietnam and involved in undercover work, which wasn't clear at the time I enlisted, but that's what it would he, and I was working with French agents...

Interviewer:

I'm sorry. .. get the camera … uh, let's go back to the... Just, "I was sent to Vietnam."

Egendorf:

Okay. Right. I was sent to Vietnam and worked, at, undercover as what's called the "Case officer," and the people who worked for me were French agents and they were men who had served in the Algerian war and later became soldiers of fortune, and they were sent, they came to Vietnam to help the Americans, and speaking French, as I did, at the time, I was made as their boss.

And I got to see firsthand what happens to former soldiers of a lost colonial war, and I became very, um, I began to suspect what was going to take place in this country when our war was over. And after I came back, I thought, or I hoped, I would be able to put it behind me and get on with my career.

[Car horns.]

Interviewer:

Oop. Say it again.

Uh, why don't you start, "I saw what happened to former soldiers... that would be...

Egendorf:

I saw, through that experience, some of the things that can happen to the former soldiers of a lost colonial war, and coming back, though I hoped to put the war behind me and get on with my career as an economist, I was, um, pulled by some inner tug to get involved with the guys here and get involved in something that made more sense here and home, and, uh, I was the co , became the coordinator of the first veteran rap groups here in New York and decided to go on to a career in psychology and started the project that became the Congressional study, "Legacies of Vietnam."

Positive products of the war

Interviewer:

Okay. Uh, we're gonna talk about closure and what closure in its largest might, might mean.

Egendorf:

Okay. I haven't rehearsed much of this, so we might get ready for this. Hmmm.

Interviewer:

You want us to stop for a second to give you a chance ...

Egendorf:

No. Let me just say a couple of things. When a psychologist works with somebody on healing, healing a traumatic experience, closure comes at the time when that experience is no longer a big deal, where it's a window on an entire life, on a life that's revived and rededicated to the things that people value.

And I think what has yet to happen with Vietnam, what we have not yet seen as a people, is how that experience serves us in having us better, uh, we haven't yet seen, we haven't yet turned that experience into the, the resource that it really is for us as a people, and also for us as a nation looking…

Interviewer:

...(inaudible) great stuff

Egendorf:

Yeah, oh yeah. I scre I wanta, but I wanta get it so I'm not flako.

Interviewer:

(chuckling) It's not flako.

Egendorf:

Okay. What hasn't happened yet is that we as a people have not yet seen the great resource that that experience is for us, not only as a nation, but as a people wanting to bring something to the world, to realize the great promise that our ancestors. Shit, man! This stuff is hard to say!

We haven't yet realized as a people the resource that that experience is, not only for us as a nation, but also for Americans as representing a certain kind of hope in the world. What our ancestors brought to these shores, two, three, four hundred years ago, and that still lives here. Uh, recently I, I went to Japan and uh, one of the great social critics of Japan said to me, "You know, I've criticized America for all kinds of things, but there's one thing that's still true about you: You're the one people left in this world who still believe you can do something about the shape the world is in."

Interviewer:

Okay. Let's, let's cut for a minute.

Oh, yes. Sound 22.

Egendorf:

After the Vietnam war, a lot of veterans are in the position of feeling like... After the Vietnam war, a lot of guys came back feeling like they got burned. They put themselves out and it didn't matter, and so where they are now is either numb or feeling like, you know, nobody cares and why should I bother?

And, what will need to happen there is guys' finding a way to serve again, and this time, in a way that feels meaningful, with their hearts open. What we find in working with people is in a traumatic experience goes from being a big deal to no big deal when people find out what really traumatic experience ceases to become a big deal when people mine it for the rich resource it is for further living. And you had somethin' about warrior spirit? Did I say that enough?

Interviewer:

No... you did. You might say it again, but not, not being so numb to it, but being willing to give (soft female voice in background; transcription of this paragraph is entirely [inaudible]…

Egendorf:

And of course the healing, the healing for warriors, people who were once warriors, guys will come alive again when they discover what their, their nature always has been is wanting to give and really count for something they care about, opening up again, daring to care.

Interviewer:

Are, are these men that you're describing that much different from the rest of their generation, those who did not share this experience?

Egendorf:

Not tremendously. I, I mean what, what we found, what I found in going over the, the interviews with both veterans and non-veterans is that there're a lot of people who were bruh burned during the war years, and feel like, um, they can't trust the government, and they can't trust, uh, the major institutions of this society, and so have retreated into a kind of cynicism or a kind of mistrust of the major institutions and, and feel like, you know, it's not worth it, why me?, why bother?

And I think that's part of the, the undercurrent of what I call the malaise or the crisis in public trust that we’re still saddled with since the war years.

Interviewer:

In another decade or so, uh, this, the generation of the '60s should become...

We're just about out of time...

Okay.

Transformation of American consciousness and global function

Tone’s at minus eight on a eight d.b. below the peak level on the tape, zero on the v.u. meter, tape’s record at seven and a half inches per second, with sixty hertz crystal with pilot sync, it’s transferred to sixteen miliimeter film at twenty-four frames per second. Working for WGBH t.v. Vietnam show number thirteen legacies, this is sound roll number 9, we’re on camera roll 16, sound roll 23 is up.
(inaudible)
Run.
Sound 23.

Interviewer:

Okay, what's, what do you predict will happen in another decade when the people of the '60s should start to take the leadership and the power in the, in the society?

Egendorf:

Well, of course, they and we will, it's just the natural course of events. Some of the trends are already set, with a large part of the generation marked and uh, reticent about participation in public affairs, uh, uh, suh, uh muh, a distinct minority of, of veterans who will never heal entirely from that war, but I think we're also seeing something else.

And it's again this minority trend that I mentioned before. Something where, like the phoenix, that emerges out of the ashes, I think we'll see a very definite renewal of a, of both the traditional American spirit but in, in a wholly new context.

A worldwide, a global, planetary consciousness of what, in fact, the, the proper role for American leadership is going into the next century, and I think it will be, in, it will be a leadership that includes many Vietnam veterans who, having gone through this war experience, see the need to shift the notion of American power as one that dominates the world to become a powerful influence to inspire the world.

I'm trying to get quippy things, but I don't even know if these things mean anything to you.

Interviewer:

Uh, let's, let's go for a second.

Egendorf:

(clears throat)…war memorial, and with programs...and with the reaching out to Hanoi, I don't care if it's controversial or not...

Okay? Yep. All right. Sound.
Clapstick. Sound 24.

Egendorf:

Virtually all of the major initiatives toward healing from the war have been kicked off by interested and dedicated veterans from not only the new programs in the Viet Veterans' Administration, the study that was done for Congress, the Vietnam War Memorial, the trip that some veterans took to Hanoi to be, to begin approaching possibility of exchanges of, of uh those still missing in action, and... that doesn't make any sense... inc—including...

Interviewer:

Go back to the beginning.

Egendorf:

Okay. Virtually all of the major initiatives toward healing from the war have been kicked off by dedicated veterans, and that includes, uh, the effort in the Veterans' Administration to provide an innovative outreach effort to veterans.

It includes a study that was, uh, mandated by Congress and that I had something to do with, called "Legacies of Vietnam," and it includes the Veteran War Memorial, and also the trip to Hanoi that some veterans took to begin the exploring the possibilities for the return of missing in action and those who were killed in action and whose remains are still in Vietnam.

And what many people aren't aware of is that there's a lot of precedent for this shift in the consciousness of those who've been to war to going from destruction to healing, and it happened after WWI with the founding of the League of Nations which, of course, was kicked off by the powers that were involved in the war, and the United Nations after WWII and all the bureaucrats of, uh, the UN and the leaders and those who drew up the charter with the, with the people who are party to that war. And the notion that in this century something needs to he done about war has been carried most, um, I think, the notion that we need to find an alternative...

Interviewer:

Sorry, sorry, why don't you just start that again, with "The notion...?"

Egendorf:

There is a notion now that is no longer merely prophetic, but very practical, that human beings in this century have to find an alternative to the institution of war, and some of the people who are most eloquent in speaking about it are, are military experts, who are turning more and more to an ancient, uh, treatise on war, called The Art of War, written 2,500 years ago by the great sage, Sun Tzu, who spoke that Suns Sun Tzu. He said that the great strategists are ones who can achieve victory without ever shedding blood.

Interviewer:

I think, I think to make that make sense, you should start the "More and more warriors are going back to that good, that treatise."

Egendorf:

Okay.

Interviewer:

Just for a start.

Egendorf:

Good. More and more, as you talk to our military experts, you find them referring back to one of the most ancient treatises on war, written by Sun Tzu, in China, 2,500 years ago.

He said that the greatest strategists are ones who can overcome uh, an aggressor without ever shedding blood, and we're beginning to realize that a lot of our doctrines, ah, "scorch the earth," "do what’s ever necessary to win," are really very clumsy, and not very practical. As the politicians say, "Whatever goes around, comes around."

Action in the world is a boomerang, and we have to find more effective ways to neutralize aggression than, uh, than warfare.

Interviewer:

Beautiful. Uh, all right. I, I'm just gonna snap one at you. If you had thirty seconds to say to the American people what's the most important important thing about the whole Vietnam experience, what is it?

Egendorf:

Are we rolling?

Interviewer:

Hmm hmm.

Egendorf:

That we need to shift from looking this, at, we need to shift from looking at the war as either a nightmare we have to forget or something we have to remember at all costs, to embracing it as really an entrée for the American people into a new sense of ourselves in the world and that we finally coming in t— I have, what my, mon, wun, gon, say that; that's the first thing I need to say.

Interviewer:

Why don't you start again?

Egendorf:

Pardon me?

Interviewer:

I say, you start again. (inaudible)

Egendorf:

But that first piece you can't use?

Interviewer:

Uh, it would probably edit cleaner (inaudible)…

Egendorf:

Okay.

Interviewer:

Go ahead.

Egendorf:

I don't, I don't know what the second piece is after that. I think I've already said it.

Interviewer:

The first piece is fine then; you can just proceed.

Egendorf:

I've got to think how I'm going to say this one. A lot of the struggles, a lot of the debates in recent years have been over whether we were "bad" in Vietnam or whether we really had good intentions, and I think we have to get beyond that debate to realize, yes, there were good intentions there, and yes, there were a lot of mistakes, and we're gonna have to find new ways to…we're gonna have to find more subtle and effective ways to support...

Interviewer:

I'm sorry just…start where you were: We’re going to have to find...

Egendorf:

We're going to have to find more subtle, less destructive and much more effective ways to support the kind of values we stand for in this world that we say in Vietnam, that yes, we could bomb them back oh, shit! I'm going to get back to the same old polemic. I don't know what, what I'm gonna...

Interviewer:

C'mon, Arthur! This is your sack, Kiddo! Don't come back now! (laughter)

Sound 25.

Egendorf:

I think we need to shift from looking at the war as something we have to either forget and put behind us or something we have to remember at all costs and remember Vietnam, and let's not, you know, fall into the same trap all over again, and instead of trying to figure out what the lessons are so that we can carry them around as formulae, see what the questions are that it raises.

I think there's no, there's no question that we made many mistakes and also that there were a lot of good intentions over there, but I think what we haven't recognized is that really, it's an invitation for us, more than anything else, to reconsider what our sense of ourselves is in the world, and to ask ourselves, "Could there be more effective, less destructive ways to have the influence we want in the world? to contribute to the kind of world order that we want to bring about?"

I, so much, so healing from this war will be considerably advanced when we shift trying to pronounce what it means to really asking ourselves anew, and admitting that we really don't know yet.

Interviewer:

Good, thank you.

Okay roomtone fans, this is Arthur Egendorf’s house.