And we just got a little taste of what was happening at the Village Vanguard when Art Taylor's “Taylor's Wailers” showed up there and played one night that old Swedish folk tune that is credited to that old Swede, Stan Getz. It is an old Swedish folk tune though. This is from Art Taylor, along with Abraham Burton on alto saxophone, Willie Williams on tenor, Jacky Terrasson on piano and Tyler Mitchell is the bass player on this one. "Dear Old Stockholm" is what we were listening to. And it is my pleasure to say that I have here in the studios with me tonight, Art Taylor. How are you doing tonight Art?

It's a pleasure to be here.

Good.

It's been a long time between drinks in Boston.

Is that right?

Yes.

Well, I see you came fully prepared this time.

I'm fully prepared. They call me “Author-Arthur”.

Author?

“Author-Arthur”, yeah.

Ok. Since you walked in, you held up two books as soon as you got here.

That's right.

Well, let's start talking about the two books because they are foremost on your mind, obviously.

That's right. First of all, I published the first one in Belgium in 1977. This edition was published by G.P. Putnam in `81, and this has just been released, coinciding with the cd, the publicities in both the book and the cd, and it's been going very well.

Yeah, and it is by Da Capo and certainly it is entitled “Notes and Tones”.

And a note is a tone. The title comes from Sun Ra. A note is a tone, a tone is a note, and if you mixed the letters up, it's the same letters.

Interesting.

So I got the title from Sun Ra. It's a book that musicians did themselves; I just did the hard work.

Now, I see the subtitle is “Musician to Musician Interviews”. Who do you talk to in there?

Oh, we talked to Miles, of course, and Dizzy and Elvin and Philly Joe and Tony Williams, Freddie Hubbard - all the top guys in the business.

When did these conversations take place?

These conversations took place mostly during the period when I was living in Europe, which was from 1963 to about 1980. And I did it because you have a lot of time in Europe. You don't have a lot of friends and so forth, because you're in a foreign country or a foreign continent, so to speak. So you have to find things to do to occupy yourself, which has proved…it's been very well for me.

You know, I'm familiar with the books but I've never actually seen the books. I'd seen the Da Capo catalog and I knew that they were in the catalog.

Yeah.

Are they books that quote a ‘lay person’ would pick up and read or are these designed for the music student?

The design was just the interview, but it has gone off into other areas that I never expected, like in the social aspects and the universities and social studies. Not only do the music departments have them, but the social studies departments in several universities have this book.

From what approach, how are they approaching it?

Because we talk about everything; we talk about music, love, sex, money, racism, girls, you know.

You covered a pretty broad range right there.

My goodness. Now you said you were based in Europe for what period?

I was in Europe for seventeen years.

Where in Europe?

Ten in France and seven in Belgium.

The usual, and I got in trouble the last time I asked this question. Why did you go to Europe?

Well, as I was telling Fenton on the way from the airport today, I went to Europe on a three month contract to play with Johnny Griffin and Kenny Drew in the French bases and Donald Byrd, and when the three months was over, I stayed on three more months, and then they left, and I led a band in the place, and I was having such a nice time and you people were having so much turmoil here in the United States, I said, "I'll look at this through the newspapers or television". I said, "I'll stay over here and have a nice time," which was a good move for me.

Now musically, did you play with other Americans that came over or did you play with…

I was still with the top guys. I would play with people like Dexter (Gordon) and Johnny Griffin and Kenny Drew and Dizzy Reese. I still played with top guys. Benny Bailey…these were first class musicians.

What made you come home?

For family reasons. My mother was very ill and she was in her 90's.

Is that right?

So I had to come back and take care of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that right, in her 90's?

Yeah, she lived to be 92. Tough lady. She knew all the musicians. She knew Miles and Monk and all those guys. They adored her.

Is that right?

They used to placate her. They would tell her that…like even Bud Powell, who didn't talk much, he would say, "Yes, I see where your son gets his fine manners from," and she'd go and make him some lemonade or a cake or something. (His mother would say) “He's really a nice guy”.

Ok

It's really nice to look back and even to speak to you about that on the radio, because I'm open about this, nothing to hide or anything. It's a fact.

You know in the publicity from the Regatta Bar, it says you are on over two hundred albums.

I think it's three hundred. I think it's three hundred. I look back and wonder how I did it sometimes.

Just run off a handful of names.

Oh gee. Coltrane, Bud Powell, Miles, Thelonious, Sonny Rollins and Jackie McLean, who I grew up with; we grew up as kids together in…oh I could go on, then I find things I've forgotten about, things with Paul Gonsalves. One of my first records was with ‘Hot Lips’ Page.

Is that right?

Yeah, I played with ‘Hot Lips’, and I played with…

How old were you when you did that?

I was kind of young, you know, twenty-one years old. I used to be the youngest guy in the band and now I'm the oldest.

When do you think your first major professional gig was?

Well, my first major professional gig I got through Connie Kay, the drummer with the Modern Jazz Quartet. He was playing in Harlem at a place called ‘The Baby Grand’ with Cat Anderson.

Oh yeah. El Gato.

And he was such a fine drummer, and he had so much work so he called me to go and do this job with Cat Anderson. I know I wasn't adequate but they put up with it anyway.

No seriously, I wasn't adequate because I didn't have the experience, for one.

You just mentioned two of Duke’s men. (Editor’s Note: Duke refers to Duke Ellington) Just in a second, you mentioned Paul Gonsalves…

Yes.

…and you just mentioned Cat

Yes.

Any other connection with Duke?

Yes. Well, I did a big research on Duke through some of his sidemen with my interviews. I've done maybe 300 albums. I've done 300 interviews too, and I interviewed several of the men in Duke's band. I even went to St. Croix to interview…

Jimmy Hamilton

Oh, you know Jimmy Hamilton. Yeah. He's a very lovely gentleman. He has a lovely home there. I didn't want to leave, you know.

Is that right?

Oh it's so nice, up in the mountain, you know, fresh air, nice food and everything. So, I spent some time with him there and that was really very nice. He's such a fine gentleman, you know, and treated me like royalty, you know. He didn't know me that well, but he knew what I was doing, and what I was trying to do was research and get some accurate information about this music and about the people who really put it down.

You know I did something once with Dizzy Gillespie and I wonder if I can sort of recreate that with you. What I did was I started naming a bunch of names and I asked Dizzy to give a response…

Why not?

…to those names. Well, let me ask you, first of all, let's go back even before we can get to a name. Maybe you won't be able to speak on this. The drums in the earliest of Jazz bands are barely recorded, and sometimes in the earliest recordings, they weren't recorded. The percussionists were playing something else…

Art Blakey, excuse me for cutting, Art Blakey had complained to me about that through the years, because he was like a father to me, you know. I knew him from when I was a kid, and he'd complained about that, the recording of the drum, so it's ironic that you speak about that.

Yeah. Well, let's look at some of the earlier drummers. What do you say about Big Sid Catlett’s role?

Big Sid Catlett. The day I heard Big Sid Catlett, that was the day I decided I wanted to play the drums.

Really?!

That was the day I decided.

Yeah, I went to what is now Lincoln Center and they used to have jam sessions there, and I went to this jam session and Big Sid was there. Max Roach was there, Freddie Webster, Miles Davis, Fats Navarro, Bud Powell, Curly Russell; it's like yesterday I can remember it. And it was packed and the people were just having such a wonderful time, everybody felt so good, you know, and I said, "Yeah I have to do that, I gotta at least try"

Yeah, yeah.

And I don't like to get up in the morning; I like to rest in the morning.

What about Papa Joe Jones?

Oh Papa Joe is something. I was talking with Max Roach the other day about Papa Joe. He was a very brilliant man, very intelligent, very outspoken and he was weird too. We had to laugh about it. I was talking with Max about it. When I first met him, he always called the younger musicians “young talon”.

OK

If he didn't know your name, or if he even knew your name, he calls you “young talon”. So, he said, "Hey, young talon" and he would say, "I try to tell Gene" - he's talking about Gene Krupa – “I try to tell Buddy Rich, I try to tell Roy Haynes, I try to tell Max, I try to tell Philly Joe"…and I never found out what he was trying to tell them.

Oh, is that right?

To this day I never knew what he... I would say, "What did you tell them?” and the subject would go somewhere else and I never found out what he was talking about.

Oh, that's frustrating.

And he was vehement about it. He would say, "I try to tell these guys". I said, “My goodness, what?” Of course, you want to know what he told them.

You should call Max and say, "Man, what did Papa Joe tell you?"

But he doesn't know either; nobody else knows.

What about Klook - Kenny Clark?

Oh, Klook. Well, I studied with Klook for 3 years. Klook lived in Paris. I lived in Paris for a while and Klook and Howard McGhee were always after me to study, because they said they thought I was talented and I could really go further than I was going, and if I really put in a good year or so of studying, with the talent I had, I could really go on and I could become very wealthy and I would be in demand and everything, and…(sigh). I didn't want to do that, you know. I’m lazy, you know. I said I don't want to do all that stuff. So he opened a school in Paris, and when he opened the school, I had to go and study in the school or I had to fight with him. I said I don't want to fight with Klook man. I love him so much. So I went and studied with him for three years. People thought I was crazy because I was studying with the kids who had picked up the drumstick for the first day. Then after six months, they got me to demonstrate, because I could do everything. I could phrase better, being a professional and everything after I learned to read music. I had made two hundred albums before I even learned how to read a note of music.

Is that right?

Yeah, so this music is a little different.

Now, you mentioned Paris and that brought to mind somebody else. I was about to ask you about Ellington's drummer, Sonny Greer, and that brought to mind Sam Woodyard.

Sam Woodyard. He's one of my favorites of all times. I have an interview I did with Sam Woodyard and when I put that out, I leave the country, I leave the planet.

Is that right?

Oh boy, they’re gonna have a hit out on me.

Really.

He's rough, he's so rough, he's really rough. He gave a lot of nice information about Duke at the same time. He's a good friend of mine also. I admire him as one of the great big band drummers, one of the great drummers period.

Now none of those folks, I guess, would be considered quote "Modern Drummers" - not til we get to the Max's and,,,

Yeah, I guess you start with Max and Art Blakey, I think. But even before that, Big Sid was very modern. He was ahead of his time.

Hmm.

And Blakey talks about him in my book, as a matter of fact. How he could play so soft with sticks and play so loud with brushes.

Is that right?

Yeah. In the book, Blakey explains how Big Sid caught him drinking one night and took him and slapped him down. He said, "Learn to play the drums before you start drinking" and doing things like that, you know.

I know Miles Davis, for a time in the seventies or eighties, didn't allow any of his musicians to partake before playing or while they were on the gig.

Right. I agree with that. I don't play music with anybody who uses drugs. I refuse. It doesn't work.

Yeah.

Spirits don't work. If everybody is using drugs o.k., but if you have one guy that's using drugs, it's…

He's in a different place.

It's another frame of mind, or alcohol, or if he's a sex maniac or whatever it is. We all have all kind of vices, but I don't play with musicians who use drugs because I know what it is, I know what it's about.

So, obviously, in putting together a band, there is the musical consideration but what you're pointing out are the extra musical considerations that help to make the music, actually.

The main thing is the music. I mean I even consider to the point, "Gee, I don't want anybody who is married" because that’s a distraction. He has to think about his wife and paying the rent and the baby and all that.

Oh my God. There are a bunch of women listeners out there throwing things at the speakers right now.

Oh really!? But I love the ladies. I love the ladies.

I think you just got yourself in trouble.

I have a good relationship with the ladies now, and if they don't like it, we can discuss it. As Erroll Garner says in my book, "I'll bring them in anyway".

Art, why don't we do this? Why don't we listen to some more of your music, as a matter of fact?

Fine, fine

Got a choice for us?

I like, well on that album, the piece I like most I think is the "Revisited", "Mr. AT Revisited".

OK, number nine. We're about to take a listen to something else from Art Taylor's recording called Wailing at the Vanguard and Art Taylor won't be wailing at the Vanguard this week. This week he'll be wailing at the Regatta Bar.

Wailing at the Regatta Bar, exactly.

You open up tomorrow night and in for two nights.

That's correct

Yeah. Who’s the band with you?

Well, we have Abraham Burton. He's a protégé, a student of Jackie McLean and a graduate of Hartford University’s Hartt School of Music. He's a very young man and I think he's one of the most talented musicians that I've come in contact with. As you know, I play with everybody who can play, let's say from Bunk to Monk.

Ok

And he's very talented and a very fine young man, and he's been with me longest at this time. At the piano we have Marc Cary, who is on this record "Mr. A.T." and I trained Marc from when he was just a guy running around New York and playing electric piano, and I trained him, because we lived in the same neighborhood and he would come to see me everyday and we would practice and he's developing into…he has the potential to be a really fine musician. And at the bass, we have Billy Johnson. He had been with Abbey Lincoln and he lives in the neighborhood too, so it's easy for me to contact him. We can rehearse and do things together, and his brother, you probably know his brother, Mark Johnson. He plays with Stanley Turrentine.

Yes.

He plays with top people like that. And he was a student of mine. He had studied with me, so it's a nice link of almost…it's almost a family like thing. We have an understanding and it's nice.

Yeah. That's Art Taylor and we're about to listen to some more of Art Taylor's music from his compact disc entitled Wailin at the Vanguard. Incidentally, you are listening to WGBH in Boston at 89.7 FM, Classical, Jazz, Folk and news.

And we were just listening to "Mr. A.T. Revisited" that is from Wailin’ at the Vanguard by Arthur Taylor's Wailers. With Arthur Taylor on drums, Abraham Burton on alto saxophone, Willie Williams on tenor, Jackie Terrasson on piano and Tyler Mitchell on bass. And of course, that title is a pun on the name of an earlier album that came out on the old Prestige label called Taylor's Wailers. As a matter of fact, I was going to play “CPA” a little later on in the evening from that one. We had a couple of listeners who called up. I should mention to the audience we are talking with Art Taylor, who is opening up tomorrow night and will be in Wednesday and Thursday…Thursday and Friday, Thursday and Friday in the Charles Hotel. We had two listeners call up and interestingly enough it was a mother and son combination. It was two separate phone calls. One called up and said, "Ask him to comment on Billy Higgins" and the mother called up and said, "Ask him to comment on Chick Webb."

Yeah. Well Ok. First, we'll go to Chick Webb. My father had taken me to see him. As a matter of fact, I was telling you that this afternoon. My father took me to see Billy Holiday and Buddy Rich and Duke Ellington and all the top people. I think he just wanted to get out the house. But I had a ball and when I saw Chick Webb, that was a marvelous… You know who reminds me of…? Tony Williams reminds me of Chick Webb.

Really? Now, you mean physically, because they are both physically small.

No, I'm talking about musically. I'm talking about musically. The tremendous control and technique, Chick Webb had that also. It was amazing, and what was amazing is when people ask me about Chick Webb. Of course, I didn't know him. I'd seen him two or three times, and maybe I'd heard the records but it was very imposing to see this man because he was deformed, because he was a hunchback, and when this man would play those drums it was unbelievable, unbelievable!

And he was very small too.

He was a small guy too, small guy too. He influenced that whole group of Buddy Rich and Krupa, and all those people from that era. I think he influenced them with his style of drumming, which was beyond, you know, just beyond everything.

Had to keep everybody up and dancing at the Savoy.

Yeah that's correct, and Ella started with him, as a matter of fact.

Yeah, in fact I just played some Mario Bauza. it was Mario who introduced Ella…

Really?

Yes, yes Mario introduced Ella to Chick Webb

And then about Billy Higgins. He's one of my favorites. A very tasty drummer and I love him as a drummer, but I love him as much as a person because he has such a lovely spirit about him, which is why he can play so nice. Anyway, he has a nice feeling about him as a human being. And Billy is one of the most tasty drummers I've ever heard, and I've always admired him and we're good friends. He's a funny guy too, you know, when he calls me, he calls me over the phone, calls me with this British accent, you know, I'm saying, ”Who is this…?”

Is that right?

Oh he has it down. He has it perfect. You think you're talking to an Englishman. And the phrases and the things he'll say, and I start getting angry now, it's getting funnier, then he'll tell me who it is.

Ok

Oh, but he's one of the great drummers, one of the people I've admired always.

Now, I wasn't planning on doing this but we haven't talked about any drummers that don't have gray hair. Any drummers out there without gray hair that you like?

Drummers is another thing, drummers are different. I believe now I'm gonna step on some toes here, but I believe drummers are…they have…well, we hang out together, we look out. If I get in trouble today, I'm gonna call a drummer because I know what he's gonna do…

What do you mean? What do you mean?

I'm talking about if I have an altercation or I have some kind of trouble, I call a drummer immediately because that's our thing. We support, we support the saxophone, the bass, the piano and everything and then we play a solo, and you can take the saddest drummer in the world and when he's on top of his stuff, he breaks the house up, am I right or wrong?

Yeah

It's a fantastic thing to see. The visual aspect is something else of it also.

Art, here's a question. I've been teaching a class on the history of African-American music. What is the connection between the…- in one sense this will be an obvious question. What is the connection between the Jazz drum and Africa? is there one?

Well, I could go on about that, but in my book, in my book you have both sides.

Really? Interesting

Yes.

And your book is called what again?

Notes and Tones, Notes and Tones. And Randy Weston is talking about Africa the music coming from Africa, the sound and everything…the soul and everything is African and this and this and Africa and so on. And then about ten minutes later, here comes Art Blakey, who says it has nothing to do with Africa. This was stuff that was created in the United States of America, and no United States, no Jazz. So, I had, I had, what do you call it?… I make films. I make films and I make videos and I had a showing of my films at the Schomburg and at one point I had both, two of these things, and all the critics and the writers there and nobody knew. Some people got very angry about the way Blakey spoke and then people got angry about the way Randy Westin spoke

Is that right?

Yeah, we'll have a little war in this place today.

But as a drummer yourself, what do you feel about that?

I don't feel anything about that. I play drums because I love to play drums. There's nothing more pleasurable for me in my life. You don't have to get up in the morning, you know, and you travel around the world. I'm here sitting with you being interviewed today - that's an ideal situation. Sometimes you get paid well, and it's not bad, so for me it was just a matter of being selfish and doing for my personal pleasure, which I still do. I hope other people like it and I always do the best that I can possibly do. But I haven't come to a conclusion on that. Africa, I imagine we are African people, or whatever the case is, but I have to lean toward Blakey and a lot of the way he speaks about that.

Is that right?

Yeah.

You mentioned the Schomburg Center, the Schomburg Center part of the New York Public Library system.

Yes.

The largest collection of African-American memorabilia in the country.

Then me next.

How did you manage to get a showing of your video work there?

Well, by being a drummer of note and playing with all the people that I've played with, the top people in the improvisation music, and I put a book out, that created interest right there. Immediately. Because what I like about the book is it's a different kind of notoriety than being a drummer who’s known. People look at you different - they have another…

Yeah

I meet people that I would never meet playing drums, through the book. That makes it very interesting, that's interesting for me, socially and every other way.

Art Taylor - today's music scene, what do you say about today's music scene… it's good, it's bad, it's healthy, it's not healthy, what is it?

I'm not gonna get into the music scene because I'm not trying to be in the music scene. I'm trying to play music that I know will affect people, and so like we're gonna play tomorrow at the Regatta Bar I know exactly what we're going to do. I know exactly what's gonna happen every second, and I know that if something, if this doesn't go like this, I'm going to change it immediately, immediately.

Hmm

I learned from Charlie Parker. Playing with Charlie Parker, he had told, he said, "The audience is never supposed to know. They are always supposed to be, `How did they do that, how did that happen'…be mystified. He said, "If they know what you're going to do, then they're not gonna even come and see you, so you're supposed to do something they don't know what you're doing". So I learned things like that. I use all the things I learned from Charlie Parker and Bud Powell and Coltrane and Rollins and people like that. I use everything. I use every little thing and it has effect, because other guys don't know about it.

Yeah.

When the people see it, it's something new. It's nothing new, you know, but it's…

There was no sense in associating with the masters if you didn't learn from them.

It's different, it's not the regular 1-2-3-4, 2-2-2, tolo-bobo-brum-solo applause everybody goes.

Ok

People don't know whether they should applause or not. I'll give an example. They have a thing in a couple of places in New York where they say, "I'm getting ready to play and we have a quiet policy, so when the music is playing be quiet". If you're playing and somebody's talking, you're not playing nothing, you know. To me,. I know when the people, when the music is right, there's nobody saying anything. The music is that powerful. When it's right, nobody's going to… You haven't got time. You're too busy listening. The waiter has to stop serving a drink. It is difficult to play music in a situation where people are drinking alcohol and they're meeting their buddy from school, the old football players, the old girlfriends, so they're…

That mean's you better aspire to concerts though.

You got it. The concerts are different. People come to listen though, but in the club, people come for different reasons. They come to meet a friend, they come to have a drink or and hear the music, of course, but it can be a side-light. Sometimes you have to gain their attention, which is a challenge too at the same time. So the people get angry with me. You don't tell the people to stop talking when I play. I know how to stop them from talking.

Just grab their attention with the music.

That's correct. If the music is good enough, nobody is gonna say anything.

Art, I wonder, see if we can pick out a final tune because we are running out of time. I'm not sure if we are going to be able to squeeze it in before I have to…

I talked you to death, huh?

Yeah. Do you have a final tune for us?

What do we have on there, "Mr. A.T. Revisited"? Let me see…

This is Arthur Taylor. He is our guest tonight. He is going to be at the Regatta Bar starting tomorrow night and he'll be in Thursday and Friday night, the Regatta Bar of course, in the Charles Hotel.

We'll be looking for you to come down there, we're gonna do something special for you, and you said the ladies were going to be a little uptight about what I said, so we can, we can check that out. OK, what about "Stressed Out"?

Ok

"Stressed Out"

That is Ok. I should also mention, I haven't mentioned this yet, that this is Art Taylor's first visit to this area since 1959. You were busy, you must have had something to do in New York and then you came here, what did you do in New York before you got here?

That's correct, I was doing a recording with John Coltrane in the afternoon, “Giant Steps”.

Is that right?

That afternoon.

Making a classic.

Yeah.

Then came up here.

Got on a plane and came to Boston, and Monk and the rest of the band had left in the morning on the train and they brought my drums and I got to Storyville and there were lines around the block, you know, and I couldn't get in the place, so it was a memorable occasion. So I thought about that naturally. Here I am now so many years later, and well, we're going to do it again.

I'm going to have to get to wrap this up Art Taylor, but I just wanted to mention also to happy sixty-fifth birthday to you.

That's correct 65, I'm a senior citizen. There's nothing I can do wrong anymore. If you don't like it, act like you think it's OK

Ok. Art Taylor again, in at the Regatta Bar. The band quickly, could you name the band for us?

Abraham Burton, Marc Cary and Billy Johnson

Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to sit down and talk to you, Art Taylor.

It's been my pleasure. I'm glad to be in Boston again.

This is from Art Taylor's recording, Wailin’ at the Vanguard.