What does the Do Ron, Ron mean?

I wish the Do Ron, Ron meant something so when someone asks me, what does the Do Ron, Ron mean? I'd have an answer. But the Do Ron, Ron probably came about because I couldn't think of anything to write at the moment and maybe figured I'd do it the next day and never got around to it. It, it either means that or it mean what Do Wa Diddy means but with three people.

Those words ended up in a song because you were writing the song and you couldn't think of the words at the time?

That is a very good possibility. I can't say, I'm answering my question.

I'll ask a new question.

Well we were very consciously trying to write a piece of entertainment for young people and without making the whole relationship in that song too serious, that kind of lightened it up, made it fun. And it's kind of a, the - Do Ron - gives it a signature. It gives it something to talk about as, as we are.

In the early days when you came to New York you said you were influenced by Leiber and Stoller in particular Jerry Leiber. Can you describe that, how you were influenced by them.

Well Leiber and Stoller were very influential to me. I, I, ah, always looked up to them. They were a few miles up ahead of me on the musical road. And in particular I suppose Jerry was more of an influence since Jerry and myself come from a lyrical place as opposed to the musical place. And, ah, and Jerry was also a sharp dresser which I brought out of Brooklyn into Manhattan and, ah, that impressed me. And I said, ah, I see. And he introduced me to all the great stores in Manhattan. And, ah, he, he was as well as a musical influence, a personal influence. Let's sum it up with that.

Can you describe for us the general scene of the Brill Building at that time.

The Brill Building in the sixties was the real hub of the pop music industry. Whether you had offices there or not you did business there at one time or another during your daily activities. And, ah, I still remember the first time I saw Burt, I met Burt Bacharach's wife, Angie Dickinson at the time, and they were walking down this long marble hallway from, which leads from the front to the back and I can still see them coming towards me and he introduced me to Angie. And it was, it's one of those moments that just stays with you. And on either side of the lobby were two restaurants, Jack Dempsey's and the Turf and they were filled with music people at lunch. And, ah, on the floor, the upper floors there were all the publishers and, and the writer's offices and the halls were just filled with music. The doors were not soundproof.

There's a sort of legend that you would start at the top of the Brill Building with your song and make your way down.

Writers would, would come to the Brill Building to, ah, pitch or sell their songs to the publishers and they would be roaming the halls going from floor to floor, trying to make contact. I had never been doing that. I had a staff writing job with publishers in the building. And, ah, but I was aware of the people looking to get in the door, as they say.

I guess we can move on to Phil Spector. How would you characterize Phil in those days?

Phil Spector was, is much of a character as anyone. And I suppose still is. He was eccentric and flamboyant and difficult at time but obvious to everyone - a genius.

How so? How would you describe his genius?

I think Phil's genius came out in his work in the studio with the Wall of Sound that was unique to him. And when we were creating songs, a certain ability to find the natural next chord and to make it all flow. And, in a, in a kind of normal, natural way but at the same, something different about each song, be able to bring that to it.

When you and Ellie Greenwich were writing with Phil, how did that process work?

When Ellie Greenwich and Phil and myself got to together to work we would create in various ways. Sometimes there would be a title to start with, ah, but usually we had an artist in mind and it wouldn't take too long before music was happening and the framework of the song was there. And the blanks we filled in with silly words like the Do Ron, Ron.

Would the music come first?

The old question of which came first the chicken or the egg or the music of the lyric, ahm, to me it all happened at once. It all, they played off one another and I don't really think one took the lead over the other. It was quite all a very natural, easy experience.

So we’re talking about the writing with three people and how there are three different parts of the song, can you just explain that a little more.

Well it was, it was kind of interesting. We had three people, Ellie, Phil and myself and there are three parts to a song. I mean there are technically the notes, the words that are hung on those notes and the chord bed. And you can change any one of those three elements to any song. So it was kind of a, a gang. We all contributed even though we, we might have had areas of responsibility let's say but they, they certainly weren't very rigid. And it was a lot of fun. It was, it was a good time. And I think it reflects in the songs. They make people smile. And we were smiling while we were writing them.

Who was responsible for what?

Well the areas of breakdown or responsibility I would say Phil was usually at the keyboard which would mean the chords, sometimes Ellie. Ahm, and my area was usually words, lyrics. And some melody because you can't help singing the words as, as they come to you. And, ah, we would edit ourselves and contribute and play off each other until it was time to stop.

You also mention one of the things you like about your lyrics. They had a direct quality. Can you talk about that particularly in reference to the song "Be My Baby"?

I think some of what, can be attributed to the success of the songs that we were turning out at the time were the directness of the lyrics. And "Be My, Be My Baby" was probably, is probably as good an example as any. It is pretty much free from metaphor. If we wanted to say - be my baby, we said be my baby and that we, I don't think we were so much aware of it at the time as we are now looking back on it. But they were very honest and direct and can, I think related well to the teenage girl I would say who we were really directing the songs at. And the lack of metaphor made it believable, relatable and streetable. A lot of the songs actually we envisioned them happening in the street. For instance - Do Wa Diddy, starts with - "There she was just walking down the street" gives you a visual image. "Then He Kissed Me" starts with “She walked up to me and asked me if I wanted to dance?” Or, “he walked up to me and asked me if I wanted to dance.” There's a visual image but it's in the real daily life of the teenager.

Who did you feel your audience was when you were writing?

We were, we were very conscious of our audience and that the, the buyer and the listener of these songs was going to be a teenage girl or as, as maybe even 8 or 9 years-old. We were not concerned with the adults. Not in a disrespectful way but we knew that they weren't going to be attracted to this material even and if they did hear it, it would certainly be acceptable to them. There's nothing, there's nothing ugly about the material. And we wanted it to be something that kids would enjoy. It, it, we were very conscious of that. And even in the fact that they're all very respectful to the male female relationship which is what 99 percent of what's on the charts is about.

That was one the main topics you wrote about was the male female relationship.

Song writing is about the male-female relationship. Yes, there are songs of, of brotherhood and politics but very rarely do we write about computers or, there are car songs, cars are cool. But even in the car songs, it's, ah, usually gets down to me and my baby and my car.

When we spoke to you the other day, characterized those topics - steady girl. Can you do that again.

Let's face it songs are about love, which is, I love you, I don't love you, come here, go away, I miss you, I don't miss you. I'm lonely. I'm not lonely. It's, it's all about affairs of the heart. And we can all relate to those. We all have common emotions. And, and our experiences may not be all common but the emotions sure are.

So, I think we’ll move onto “River Deep Mountain High”. How did you end up hooking up with Phil again for this one?

Most of the songs that, ah, we wrote with, with Phil were for his artists even though like "Chapel of Love" ended up with Ellie and I working on that for our own label. Most of the songs were created for Phil's artists. And they were pretty interchangeable from artist to artist. The Ronettes can do "Be My Baby" but they also could have done the "Da Doo Ron Ron", etc.. One song in particular was created for a particular artist and that was "River Deep Mountain High". We sat down to create something for Tina Turner, her particular talents, her particular range and, and energy that she puts into her vocals. That song was for Tina.

Can you describe what it was about Tina's voice that resulted in the music and lyrics?

Tina Turner, Tina Turner's unique energy and vocal range allowed us to, to create a song that we could hardly sing ourselves. We could go for those top notes and for, and for those bottom notes and really get the range that is, you would not ordinarily write if you were just writing a song with no artist in mind because most, most songs you try to keep within an octave range because most singers are comfortable within those 12 notes. But with Tina we had that latitude to go for it and it's kind of fun to, to be able to do that.

Did her presence, the manner she sings, sort of more gruff, I don’t know if it’s gruff but the rougher nature of her voice affect the lyric content of the song at all?

No.

Did you see the Beatles on Sullivan, by the way?

Not on Sullivan I was there in Shay Stadium in their first performance there.

What was your reaction?

I might have seen Sullivan too, it seems like I have over the years. I don't know if I saw it initially.

What was your first reaction to the Beatles?

The first time I actually heard any of the Beatles' music it was in a car. I think it was the, the B side of their first record. I think it was "I Want to ... I Want to Hold Your Hand". And it, it really sounded different to me. And it sounded a bit like trouble, like this is something new 'cause I very rarely paid any attention to what anyone else was doing. Not only wasn't there time, but, ah, it kind of didn't matter. It was all very Wright Brothery in those days and as long as whatever we were doing was working, it kind of didn't matter what anyone else was doing. But, ah, the Beatles and everything about the act, all the heat and the publicity couldn't ignored. It didn't influence because we weren't, we were mainly recording and writing for girls and girl groups. So there was very little influence on myself, I can speak for that, by the Beatles. But just an awareness that there, there was a new, a new game in town.

What did you think of their earlier songs? What did you think of them as songwriters, like “I Wanna Hold Your Hand” or “She Loves You”?

As a song writer when I first was aware of the Beatles and started, you couldn't avoid hearing it, not that I, I tried. And what, what struck me was not so much the songs or the part of the songs that, that seemed unique to me were, was more melodic at the beginning than, than the lyrics because they were still talking about, you know, I love you, I don't love you and I need you or don't need you. And, ah, and, and their, their vocal sound, the arrangements that, that's what struck me as unique. More, more the record producer in me was impressed than the song writer, I would say.

You had a number of hits with girl groups after the British invasion, the mythology is the Brits came over and took over everything. Can you explain why you think that happened or why that might not be so true?

The, the British invasion certainly made a lot of noise in the record industry. And, ah, I remember when we started Red Bird Records we put out the Dixie Cups singing "Chapel of Love" with everything on the charts, these white boy groups playing instruments, we put out three black girls just singing their little ditty. And it went to number one and locked in for about two months I think. And I think that just attests for the need for variable programming at the station level. But that was quite a thrill.