WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE FIRST SOVIET ATOMIC BOMB THAT EXPLODED IN 1945?

At this time, I started my work in Kurchatov Laboratory and I re--remember that as soon some unofficial information came to this laboratory that a test was successful, that a weapon was functioning. I would say people were happy in this laboratory...somehow they felt that they contributed to that.

YOU WEREN'T ACTUALLY AT—YOU DID NOT WITNESS THE TEST?

You know, at the time I was in the laboratory headed by Kurchatov and this laboratory was rather large to this time and there were many scientists which were working in different branches of nuclear physics and not only nuclear physics except for some engineering problems also there, and the program of this laboratory and so there was no formally engagement of some persons who worked at this laboratory, let us say, production of nuclear weapon, nevertheless, people realize it was their—their doing, somehow it was related to this program and of course the successful test was considered the success also of this laboratory.

WERE THERE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT HOW THE NEWS OF THE SOVIET ATOMIC BOMBS WERE BEING RECEIVED IN THE WEST?

No, somehow--I don't remember there was a big interest to that at this time at least among person whom I work together somehow there was no concern of that.

RESPOND TO THAT AGAIN AND REPEAT MY QUESTION A LITTLE MORE IN YOUR ANSWER. PERHAPS YOU COULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE AMONG MY GROUP OF SCIENTISTS THERE WAS NO CONCERN OF THAT NONETHELESS WE HAD...

Uh, it's a time when information came about nuclear tests in the Soviet Union there was no concern among the scientists whom I worked together about the reaction in the West.

AND PEOPLE IN THE LAB WERE—WERE HAPPY...

Yeah, in fact people felt somehow that the success in this field leads to the success of this laboratory also. And they felt happy.

DID THE SOVIET SCIENTISTS THINK OF THEMSELVES AS BEING IN COMPETITION WITH NUCLEAR SCIENTISTS IN THE UNITED STATES?

Yeah, obviously they considered only the United States as a country where scientists work on this problem are really as serious competitors in this field. That was my feeling at the time.

DID THEY SEE THEIR WORK AS HELPING IN THE DEFENSE OF RUSSIA FROM AN OUTSIDE ATTACK OR SECURING A PLACE FOR THE SOVIET UNION AS A WORLD POWER?

I wouldn't say that there were many discussions on this subject....there were no discussions at all among physicists at least whom I knew, but nevertheless I have the feeling that it was considered quite natural just after the war to work on defense on the Soviet Union. It was not considered as something unnatural.

QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER HE CAN CITE ANY EXAMPLES OF KURCHATOV DISCUSSING WITH HIS SCIENTISTS, THE REASONING AND MOTIVATION FOR THEIR WORK

You know, I knew personally Kurchatov and I had chances to meet him several times to talk and I recollect quite well him as one who was leading seminars, discussions, but what I recollect there was always some scientific problems which were discussed and then practiced, it was never under discussion, any political problems, let's say, to explain why we are working from this, consider to be quite obvious.

FELT THAT SOVIET SCIENTISTS WERE VERY PATRIOTIC IN MAKING THIS WEAPON, HERE THEY HAD FOUGHT IN THE WAR THEMSELVES, THEY CAME BACK HOME, THEY WORKED HARD, THEY BUILT THE WEAPON, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE A BUNCH OF IMMIGRANT SCIENTISTS FROM EUROPE CAME OVER AND WORKED ON THE BOMB FOR THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

You know I--I consider the statements of Kurchatov. All right with respect to the Soviet scientist who just return from the war and started to work on this programs. No--at this time, it was very strong national feeling in the Soviet Union after the war was came to the end, people still consider now we have to secure the country so it's considered that something quite natural. And there were no doubts of whether we have or not to work on this problem. I don't say that--the that it was dangerous to—to put some doubts on this, on the necessity to work on that. That's really would be very dangerous to put some doubt here. But to my feeling, other people did not talk of that just enough feelings that it is necessary. They believed it is necessary to work, and they had no doubt.

CONFIRMS THE NOTION THAT SOVIET PHYSICISTS WERE MOTIVATED BY A SENSE OF PATRIOTISM

( ) yeah, I would say so.

ASKS TO RESTATE ANSWER

Yuh, I would say the continuation I would say that participation of Soviet physicists in atomic program was quite natural. Not only because they were interested to work on some sci--on some scientific problems, but also because they considered that Soviet Union since the war has finished still has to be very strong in military for military point of view.

WHAT WAS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF KLAUS FUCHS AND OTHER ATOMIC SPIES IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE SOVIET BOMB?

I don't know what the type of information was transferred by Fuchs to the Soviet Union. Uh, I can just express my personal attitude. I never heard of Fuchs at the time when I was engaged in the first years in the work in nuclear physics. It came later but I—when I learned about Fuchs but it seems to me that the—what had go— in the case of basic research, obviously if any information transferred by Fuchs was of no importance because basic research is first of all intellectual potential of the country and technical—technical level of the industry. But with respect to some ethical aspects maybe there was some information transferred by Fuchs which was of interest but here again one has to take into account that it is not enough to have some information but one has to have the industry capable for realizing the—some technical things and just to own information it is not enough. Of course, it--it is very helpful, but on the other hand it maybe that some information could help to the Soviet Union to choose a right ways how to develop Soviet atomic program and this I don't know I wasn't there.

WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE BEGINNINGS OF THE SOVIET THERMONUCLEAR PROGRAM?

You know it was again a never stated that from this time we start to work on this project. You know everybody learn that in it's own way. And for me that was also my own way how to learn that and in fact maybe this better to start not from the beginning how I learned about that, but I would say from the end, from this story. Maybe that's a little bit long but I try to ex--to tell you. It happened in 1953 that I had to do some experiments with plutonium. And for that reason I had to travel to Ural, to the land where plutonium was produced. And it happened that at this time, Kurchatov wanted to go to this place. It was the same place it happened. And he invited me with my apparatus to travel together with him. That was in January of 1953. And it happened at this during our travel to Ural, and Kurchatov was 50 years old. It seems that he escaped the celebration. And it was just in one railway station where our special coach was standing and the--I appeared to be one who celebrated this Kurchatov is 50 years at university. And then in the evening Kikoin came to visit Kurchatov. Kikoin was a physicist who was ahead this time of diffusion problem of separation of isotopes. And when Kikoin came, he brought a present, small present for Kurchatov. And that really was very curious what has happened. There was a small animal cut from the stone, and this animal was like a lizard, and there it was written in this piece of stone: "To one victorious, from one defeated." So, did I explain correctly what is written there? From --"To victorious from defeated one." So--and then Kikoin has given this present to Kurchatov, and more likely Kurchatov realized what does it mean, but he pretended to show that he does not understand and he ask me what does it mean? What is written here, I don't understand? First I did not understand myself but then it came to me the explanation. You know, in reality that was not a lizard, but that was an animal which lives in water and is called Triton (Triturus newt). But by shape it is like a lizard. But Triton is the same as tritium, and tritium is a material, a heavy hydrogen, which is used in hydrogen weapon. So then I realized that it was symbolically not this animal but just tritium. So and then at this moment I thought so that maybe explosion of thermonuclear weapon occurred. So was it was not true to, but it was very close to that because in a few months, there was a successful test that was one way how we learned that uh, program of hydrogen weapon coming at least to the end. So, but nevertheless...to talk about my personal involvement of other persons. It happened that in the 1950s, I started with in our group with others through to construct a small accelerating team in which we use reaction... in plastic, that was exactly the reaction which is used in nuclear--in hydrogen weapon. And later we started introduction of neutrons produced in this reaction with uranium. So somehow it happened in '51 or '52 when this experiments were in progress. And obviously it was at the time when some other groups of physicists just were measuring different constants--constant, different quantities of important for hydrogen weapon. That's one—another example of how it was clear that this--all this works were related to hydrogen weapon. At that time, I remember once, Sakharov visit our group. That was somewhere in maybe '52, either the beginning of it, '52 or the end of '51. And since that time Sakharov who was not famous at that time, but he was just interested to know some one—some results of our measurements so that's means for me...that somewhere in early '50s the work on the thermo—thermonuclear devices was intensified.

QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THERE WAS A CLEAR-CUT DECISION BY THE SOVIETS TO DEVELOP A WEAPON

Oh, I believe there was such a decision taken at the very high level of this—it was taken at the level of Kurchatov and his co-workers. But you know some persons are very engaged just formally in this project, but some persons were just doing measurements, not, maybe even not realizing exactly that they are working for thermonuclear device. As they did not know of this for some formal decision. That's how I feel about it.

QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THE US DECISION TO DEVELOP A HYDROGEN BOMB INFLUENCED THE SOVIET DECISION TO DEVELOP THEIR OWN

No, I don't know. But I would say soon, some ideas came to the Soviet scientists. They would work on that you know. I would say it would depend on this.

QUESTION ABOUT WHAT SORT OF A MAN KURCHATOV WAS

I would say he was extremely attractive person and...

ASKS TO RESTATE ANSWER

I would that Kurchatov was a very attractive person and as a leader many person respected him obviously. I remember him as one leading seminars, directing seminars and he was very good. So then, I would... in relation how I remember, he had I would say a charm. And his influence was extremely high.

QUESTION ASKING TO ELABORATE ON THE CHARM OF KURCHATOV

To my opinion, in my opinion that this very important that one for example has a sense of humor and Kurchatov working in nuclear physics and directing big project, but when communicating with people, he was always—you could feel a sense of humor of him and he was—I don't know if it's possible to say in English, he was not a dry person. He--he was very lively person and he came put some interesting question, direct seminars and also he was interested in not only developing profound, deep project like hydrogen weapon or the nuclear reactors, but for example he was very much interested in fundamental research and when our group started that, he supported us very strongly. To my opinion that this very important, when came, for example, has a sense of humor, And Kurchatov working in nuclear physics and directing big project. When communicating with people with people he was always in good feel a sense of humor...