How did the entry of big corporation change the black music scene?

Well, I think, um, it affected those black artists who’s music was…

Well, the corporate entry into black music, um, affected those artists whose music was, let's say, less accessible to pop radio. Its music was a little bit rawer, more primitive, um, as they say, and whose demographics weren't as great. I mean the corporation was looking for the, uh, biggest sales that they could. So music which did not have crossover potential more or less went by the wayside. And in some instances some of the artists were, uh, making their music different. Uh, they were adding all kinds of, uh, strings and horns, and, and uh, and sort of watering down the funk, as they, as the saying goes. And so as those artists who, um, couldn't do that or refused to do it, uh, left. And the music became somewhat, uh, a lot lighter, uh, sweeter and softer. I think rap is, is a rebellion against that. I think that the, uh, kids in the street got tired of all these, uh, 50 musicians, and strings and horns and the cost of production was so great, that music was losing some of its soul, it was losing some of its funk, and so they came back basically with just rhythm-driven music, very simple productions, a lot more funk, using some of the samplings from some of the funk people, and, and that was the birth of it, because they were rebelling against the watering down of their music, and so that's what we have now. And if you notice, we're back, uh, to funk in the rap music, because they're sampling people like George Clinton, James Brown, and all those people who still have the bass lines and still have the drums, and that's basically the foundation. They were tired of black people making their soul so sweet and soft and mellow. Too pretty in other words.

Well, I think uh, Kenny and Leon, uh, were, uh, magical in what they were able to do, the Philly sound. Because they were able to keep the funk in their music, but yet, uh, make it nice and mellow and sweet. Because, you know, the Philadelphia horns, the strings that they put on top of it. But underneath all of that, there still is the driving bass line, there still is the drums. So that they had a magical combination, and in which they were able to synthesize both the primitive and the sweet, and uh, it just, it just went. It was a sound that everybody loved. People tried to emulate it, but it was just impossible because they had that combination. And uh, they worked with great engineers, great musicians in Philadelphia, but they still laid the tracks, they still laid the basic foundation of, of, of soul under their music. But it does have the strings, it does have the horns, you know, but it still kept the funk.

You told me how, given the _________ of operating, that they worked like _________.

I think, um, you know, one of the reasons for my success was the fact that I was able to sign the acts that I wanted. Up until that time, most black music divisions, I think there was basically only one, um, they were limited to promotion and marketing. And they more or less had to sign the types of acts that, uh, the white A and R people signed, you know. And for the most part they weren't successful. And if you look at CBS, uh, with their great marketing machine, the acts that they had the most success with were those that came from black producers, like Gamble and Huff, that came out of Stax, with the possible exception of Earth, Wind and Fire. The rest of the acts did not really live up to potential, because they weren't signed by the people that were that familiar with the music. That's changed now. And most record companies now because of the example that was set by Capitol, do have black A and R. And I think that's why we have so many black stars now than we did compared to the '70s when primarily I guess the only competition was CBS and Capitol. But now you have black music divisions over at Warner Brothers, over at MCA, over at, uh, RCA -- most of the, most of the companies. And I think that the fact that they have young, talented A and R people that are black going out and signing these acts has added to, uh, the growth of our music and, and the breadth of the artists that we have in so many different areas.

One of the things that Kenny Gamble complained about was that he felt that after a certain point, CBS was actually in competition with him, even though he was still signed, because they tried to gain dominance over black music, they were busy trying to scoop up all the acts. Do you think that was a factor in terms of the corporate impact on black producers?

Well, when I went over there, uh, when I went over to CBS, there was some resistance on the part of the sales department in feeling that, uh, the music that they were getting the most successful with was not owned by the company, it was outside labels. And uh, that these black producers out of Philadelphia were making all the money, and out of, uh, Stax, and there was a little resistance to it because they felt that the lion's share of the profit was not going into the coffers, and they weren't Columbia or Epic artists. So there was some resistance to it. And the battles that, that, that Logan fought and LeBaron tried to, to get exposure for the artists, caused a lot of tension. I walked into a situation and it was a very, very tense one. As I told you before, Michael was limited to the black division and was not given the promotion effort. So it took a lot of, a lot of work and a lot effort. Uh, fortunately, I was able to sign acts on the Columbia and Epic roster, which turned that around. Our profit center then became the Columbia and Epic artists, like Marvin Gaye and Michael, I worked with Gladys and got her black producers. And so we were successful for whatever reasons that Philadelphia International and Stax were let go. And now as you now basically all they have are in-house artists.