First when I first experienced this I was with Bobby Bland and it was certain, like if you went up the East Coast from, from Massachusetts down to the tip of Florida, if James Brown was in front of you, you could give it up. You weren't going to draw anybody. If he was coming behind you, you still didn't draw anybody. They'll tell you right off the bat, hey, man James is coming to town. And every guy that thought he could dance was trying to do what he saw James Brown do, you know, he would come to that show to watch James, you know, slide across that floor and all that other stuff but he was more, he was a little stronger than people really realized how he was. I've seen him stop riots. You will, you may not ever hear nobody tell you this, in Knoxville, Tennessee, I saw him stop a riot, I mean stop it. He did it. And it surprised me because I, I was scared to death 'cause I, you know I saw him stop a riot there. I saw him stop a riot in Jacksonville, Florida. I saw him stop a, I guess you could call it a riot too, they were about to tear up the whole downtown area and because some things were wrong or some things were said. I saw him do that. But then again I also saw things that he did for the state that he came from, the two states, I'll put it that way. And I saw the change that were made. A lot of people won't give him credit for a lot of things that he did but he did a lot of things. I also know that there are some things that will not be said that I much rather not say myself that I know happened, you know.

We, we, are, are, are we talking about things that what James meant to a lot of people, black people and I don't mean to but I'm just being up front and frank about, he was like what maybe Elvis Presley was to the Caucasian race. You know James stopped riots. I've seen him stop this. He has had people to, to imitate him I mean to the end, I mean diehard people imitating what he's doing, you know. I have seen him do charitable work that was not documented possibly, you know, but I've seen him do a lot of that. I've seen him talk to children to try and, you know, get them to keep themselves, stay in school, do something with themselves. I've seen this side of it, you know, and I've also seen, you know, the, the business side of it, you know. But then you have to look at what he was doing against what's happening now. You got a lot of young artists out there that has the moves and the dancing. And if you would pay attention and go back and see some of his old film and stuff, they're doing the same things he was doing, he was doing, you know. So, you know, he, he had a heck of an impact on the black population, you know.

Zippo, okay, you know I, I still say, to me James Brown partially was almost like Elvis Presley was to his audience. James was to the black audience as to what he was. That's the way I, I perceive it that way because there's a strength that he had, you know, his strength in the music world.

What did Maceo and Fred do to …?

When you talk about James Brown you also have to talk about Maceo Parker and Fred Wesley and Pee Wee, Alfred Ellis. Now these are three people that I, you know I, they was also Annette Jones but I still say I, I'm speaking of the three people that I know most about. Maceo reminds you, Maceo is a dry, Maceo reminds you on his horn of Bootsy on his bass. Maceo can, Maceo can march, seem, seemingly forever. He reminds me of what Paul Gonzales did with, with Duke Ellington's band when he took that long, long solo well Maceo can, Maceo can, Maceo can play, let's just put it that way. Maceo can play. Maceo make you play. You make Maceo play. Maceo make you play. You enjoy playing with him. Fred, I have not found a better musician than Fred either, Fred Wesley. His trombone, Fred can write and Fred would write a lot of things to complement say, with Jabo, I'm going to play 'cause you can play this or I'm going to write this 'cause around what you're going to play and you just haven't heard a lot of stuff that he has to offer yet. Pee Wee surprise you. He can hear a lot of things. He can write a lot of things. But these people were the people that got inside of James Brown. They knew what, basically what he was. But I still say it was stuff they wanted to get out and he could get it for them. You know what I'm saying, that was one of the reasons but they were beautiful people to work with. They made, they complemented, everybody complemented everybody else, put it that way.

Pretty fresh tune.

Yeah it was fresh, it was new, it, it was fresh when I joined the group, it had been recorded. Yeah, it had been recorded when I joined the group, yes.

You were already with the group …

Yes, I was there when, I was there when he recorded "Cold Sweat".

Did you hear a difference in terms of how James …

There was a difference with "Cold Sweat" as the prop was brand new but yes that was what we went back to and earlier in the tape what I was telling you, the fresh ideas came and you hear something somewhere and you brought it to the band but then you had, you had, he had added I think Clyde was there then and Clyde, you, you have to hear Clyde's playing to know what Clyde was doing 'cause I, I asked Clyde a couple of times, tell me what you're doing 'cause I, I'm looking at you and I don't understand a lot of, but Clyde had a way of, his way of playing it. And but you also had the Congo drums to add to the rhythm along with two guitars and the bass player, you know. And, and all of that in the mix made it all work but there was a change because there was a fresh idea. Clyde's playing in that too was Clyde, that's Clyde, that's not James's idea, that's Clyde. See, that's a fresh idea. That was Clyde's idea, you know.

…

You hear the question about different jobs, different gigs you play, how rich, how deep, how hard. I'm trying to get all these words together now but we played the Olympic Theater in Paris and I have never seen one other place other than Paris was Yankee Stadium but I have not seen, the groove was so hard in Paris that there were people that were completely out of it. I mean there were people that were literally out of it. I mean the groove was so hard and so good I can see that show now man, it, it was just, it was so hard. When, when we stopped, we couldn't stop, we had to play some more. We played almost 30 minutes longer after we had, after it was supposed to have been over with. And I have seen people go through changes at that theater that I just

couldn't believe. I just couldn't believe they were doing it. And it was just, it was that, it was that groove. You had fell into a groove that you could not just walk out of and say, well, we cut it off right here. You couldn't do that. It had to, what they say, how you say it and I just had to ease away, it just eased out. And, and all night long after that you could still hear that pounding, that groove it was there. That's, that's the only way I can explain to you. It's a high that you don't need drugs to get into and it scare you sometime because I mean it was, it was awesome.

What part did Bootsy play?

Bootsy Collins played the part as to stomp his arch in his foot down, he had to go to the doctor for that. He stomped his foot so hard, that right foot in that timing and played so hard that the arch in his foot, I guess that's what they call it, came down on him. He couldn't hardly walk on it. And I mean that's how hard it was. It was so hard that he was walking and he couldn't turn it loose and Phelps had the long chord, he couldn't turn loose. I couldn't turn loose. James Brown walked offstage and thought it was over with. He came back and couldn't turn it loose. The people wouldn't let you turn it loose. That's how good it was. It was hard. It was hot.

Well say, say you told me don't tell about that woman taking her clothes off.

No she did, she said, she said, we won't, we won't tell she took her clothes off now 'cause I'm sure about to tell you 'cause that's what I, I never will forget that. Hey, that, that we were playing and this woman came across the stage man and I, she didn't, I don't think she knew where she was and she zipped that dress down and when it fell, hey in the book, there it was, boy. She was, hey, she was down and she didn't know it. I know she didn't. She could have. I don't think she really knew what she was doing because there was no one person that she was going to 'cause when you, we saw, I cut her off at the corner. You know you watch people on the stage, that many people, and she was and she was just, as if she was mesmerized. When she come across the stage she just and a dress, it was, ooh wow. My wife didn't know that. Yes she does know that, you know that, you know, but hey she dropped her dress. Whoo, wow, I can see that now. That's, that's amazing. Boy that was but that was a heck of a groove, God, darn, man you couldn't believe that groove. And I mean everybody left and then everybody came back with it. God know. Girl you just had to see it, had to be there to believe it. It was good though. Wow. That was good. Okay, what we going to do now? Oh man you're taping this thing. See what he did.

…

Okay John you got me on that one here. But it was, man, you'd have had to see that. Oh man, I'll tell you what have you ever seen, have you ever, have you ever witnessed the Holiness church as they call it? Have you ever witnessed that? Okay well there is a, if you go to a black Holiness church, you have to witness how they get off into what they're doing and when they get ...

Something just happens.

Yeah, yeah, it's happenings and see they are, the Holiness don't hold back man they just go, hey they, they let you know that they are serving God and they just enjoy it and when they do it they get off, to me seems like some almost in a trance like and that's the way this, hey man that audience was in that mood and when she come across there, she was just like that, boy. And I said, wow, man and she had a good shape on her too.

Oh boy.

Yeah, that's, it was that kind of groove and everybody left, the band left the stage, the entire band except the rhythm section and we were sitting there and it was real low and man Bootsy went [bam bam] doing that and [sings] God dog boy and then it just, just took off again and when it took off like that, they came back man. Everybody came back in that little old group. Boy that was, that was good, you know. I enjoyed that. I had a good time with that. Boy you had a ball. And then after you left when that, when that night was finished I think we went somewhere to eat or something over on the, we went over on the West Bank somewhere to have some late supper, I call it, late evening, that late and you could still hear that [slap slap] I could still feel it, wow. That's a heck of an experience but you can't explain it to anybody. You know people have to fall into it to know what it really is. But you can say, it was good. It was good. God that was good. Bootsy could play too. He could play. And he, but everybody could do that though you know like stomp your arch down, you believe that? Now that's, that's hitting the floor, you know, that's, that's not even knowing where you are, hitting the floor that hard with your foot, you know. But that dude could play. He could play some funk. He could play some funk, boy. And he'd tell you in a minute, see ya. Ha ha I like that. What are we doing now?

…

We're through? Well why are we sitting here looking at each other like this?

Because I …

For real but you know you, you know I told you a few minutes ago you know we were talking and I told you I could see that whole show. It's a lot of things I've seen man. I didn't know, first time I got with James Brown I'd never played on the back of a, a flatbed trailer in a tobacco warehouse in Carolinas, honey. Yeah, that's the way you had to play.

It was the Chitlin’ Circuit.

Chitlin’ it to death. But then again, you know, I had done it before but we were out in an open when, when Otis Redding, Little Willie John, what was the girl's name, Maxine Brown, all the artist at one time, Sam Cooke, the last, the last road show that Sam Cooke did, I did that show. We were on that show together. We started somewhere near New York and went all the way to California with it. But that's when you would have five, six artists, big artists on the same show, everybody done a segment, you know. That was the circuit, the Chitlin’ Circuit. Then you couldn't stay nowhere. You go to Freeport and they want to lock you up in jail because you wanted to stay at the Holiday Inn. Go to Jackson, Mississippi and they said, well, you're the first blacks that ever stayed in a Holiday Inn here but you guys took the blankets. Yeah. But the blankets was in the bottom drawer of the dresser, they were still there. Nobody took them. Aw that's just, it just, it was a part of the times. It was… James did, James, James even did what's this thing? What's his name? That got shot in the tail, shot him in his butt. Meredith… remember, you remember we, we flew into Jackson in his private plane, the rhythm section. We flew into Jackson. Man, these people walking around with all the guns and crap.

From …

Yeah, man that was, that was scary man. But you'd yell and you don't know what's going on. You know this is when the movement was, you know. And these people are walking around and they, they were supporting and we flew in there man. Shot the dude in the tail end man, you know. And then they'd tell you, you can't stay here, you can't eat here. And going to New Orleans. No we left New Orleans once on the bus with Harley and we went on the bus.

Yeah, but you weren't on the bus I don't think that time. We left and we stopped there in that Mississippi on Highway 61 to buy fuel. We had to have somewhere near close, 200, 300 gallons of fuel, a case of oil. And the dude said we couldn't use the bathroom. Harley got mad, wouldn't let him pump the fuel. Went across the street and the man say, yeah you can use my bathrooms in the station. You can go in the house. I'm serious. They, you know it was, you know that was a part of your process of learning. That's a part of being able to be on the road and learn what's really going on. Say people say pay dues. You got dudes that come out here now that has never done anything, everything is set up for them. You know you go to the hotels which are fine now. You go to the auditoriums to play, they got buffet set up for you to do that. Heck you get the sandwich or something or you make a sandwich on the bus, get there and play a gig and get off and get back on the bus. Sleep on the bus. You couldn't but that's one thing about James though when you came off the bus you came off with a tie and shirt on. You didn't come off with your scarves and your stuff you came off, you know you represented, you, you, you were representing his organization so that's the way he wanted you to do it, you know. But it was, it was something out there. He's not shooting that, I know he's not. Is he shooting now? You're not going to ask me some more questions are you?

…

It's not a flourish.

Okay, what is it?

You play a five or six in a pattern for you. Don't say flourish. Don't talk like that. You know better than to say things like that.

… ignorant.

You're not ignorant, I'm not going to say that now. I didn't say that. I just said stop flourish.

I love it. I love it. John I think you and I are going to have to talk. He's still got that camera going. I know he's still looking like that man. Why does he catch me? You caught me. That's the second time you done that. I believe you were catching me when we were talking about that groove.

Now you all hurry back and see us now, you hear?

Thank you.