Let's start out Claudette talking about the kinds of music that you grew up with that you were exposed to and liked when you were a young ordinary child or young teenager.

Well, probably as a young teenager, I really liked almost every kind of music. In my home we had gospel, we had jazz, we had classical. My mother listened to some of the opera stars. So there was a little bit of everything you could imagine in terms of music that was played in our house. Of course, there was rock 'n' roll, and there was blues. My mother at one point really, really loved the blues. I thought, why is she playing all those sad songs. Because to me at that point, the blues all sounded as thought they were telling tales of woe. And I didn't realize that it was basically their story, their lives, and as I became a little bit more mature, I recognized that there were really great stories in those songs.

What about in church? Tell me about your first experience singing.

Well, my first experience actually was when I was three years old. And uh, my grandmother and great uncle had me sing in front of the national Baptist convention in Louisiana. And they stood me up on a box because I was like a little short for people to be able to see me. So that was my very first experience in singing if you want to call it professional.

And when you moved to Detroit in 1950 did you start hearing different kinds of music there than you were used to in the South?

Probably. Probably heard a little bit more, uh, basically what was considered rhythm and blues at that time. Because there were only a few stations that played what were the black artists. They were unfortunately only played on just a couple of stations around the city. And if you wanted to hear any people of color, those were the stations that you had to listen to. There was not a lot of crossover artists.

What was it like in Detroit as a teenager. Can you give me an idea of the street corner music, everybody trying to get into groups in school, just the kind of musical energy that was around?

Well, I think that most people felt that they could sing. And consequently, uh, there was a group in every household, let alone, and also every block. Every block had lots and lots of groups. Uh, girls, guys, some all female groups, some guy groups. And it was basically a form of entertainment and recreation because there was not a lot that you could do. At that time, actually in the early '50s, the gangs were really, what we considered gangs anyway, were um, kind of trying to take over Detroit. But it was not like the gangs of today. Uh, they may have had a knife or two or something, not like they didn't have these heavy machine weapons. But that was soon taken care of. I can't remember the policeman's name or the chief of police, and he came in and he cleaned up Detroit and removed all that. And so consequently if you were living in an area that perhaps you did not have, um, a lot of income, I think one of the things that you did was get together and sing, or play together or talk together or whatever. And that was one of the things that lots and lots of young people did at that time.

So the Matadors and the Matadorettes came out of that situation. Can you talk a little bit about how that started?

Well, uh, the Matadors were an all male group at that time, of which my brother who has since passed away, uh, was a part. And that group, the Matadors consisted of Bobby Rogers, Ron White, Pete Moore, Smokey, and my brother, Emerson Rogers. And the female group that I sang in was actually a sister group to my brother's group, and that was the Matadorettes. And in fact my cousin, Jeanette, who is Bobby's, um, sister, she sang in that group. Uh, I used to, if my brother had a group, I would just form a sister group. Prior to my brother being in the Matadors, there was a group called the Orchorettes, I mean the Orchids was his group, and I was in a group called the Orchorettes. And we sometimes would sing together. What came about for the Matadors and I became a part actually of that group of guys, my brother joined the Army. And he was 17 at the time, and he decided that's what he wanted to do, was serve his country. And when he left, many people had heard of the Matadors. And that's how we got the audition. We went to see Nat Turnapole, we met Berry Gordy. And um, they had asked me, the guys had asked me if I would sing with them. The reason was is that our basement was actually their rehearsal hall. I think it was actually. And I did. I said, well, I'll try. I wasn't sure if I could sing with them or not. Because at that point I was a first soprano, and I wasn't sure if my voice would be low enough for their harmony parts. Well, they said it wouldn't be a problem if we'd try it. So we did. And uh, after that, after we met Berry Gordy and became a part of that whole scene, um, the group when we began to record needed a name other than Matadors, because Matadors didn't seem to suit a group that had four guys and one female. And the name the Miracles actually came about with us putting lots of names in a hat and we just kind of shook it up a little bit and um, the Miracles was the one that came out. And that's how we became the Miracles.

Tell me a little bit more detail about the time your group auditioned for Jackie Wilson's manager and when you met Berry Gordy.

Well, the day that we went to audition, I had on my Marine Corps uniform. I was in the United States Marine Corps reserves. And I had a meeting that day, and I went over to, met them at the rehearsal. And as a result the guy that was listening to us, felt that since there was a girl in the group, that we should to a duet. The we was Smokey and myself. He felt that we should be, it should be like a Mickey and Sylvia pop duo, which was popular, a popular duo at that time. And I was extremely shy. And did not, I loved to sing, but I never wanted to be the lead. And when they asked me to do the lead part, you know, for Smokey and I to stop singing together and the group not to be in the background, you really couldn't hear me. The guys said, what happened, what happened. Because you heard this little voice like... Well, I didn't really want to be the lead. I wanted to be a part of the background, which I have always felt was actually the most important part. The melody is actually very simple to sing. Because there it is, it' what's always played, it's what you hear. And to do the harmony part to me was the most difficult and that's what I really wanted to do. And I think when they got that message that I was not interested in being the lead singer, we had a lead singer, and that was Smokey and that was sufficient.

So even though Jackie Wilson's manager wasn't interested in the group, tell me about how Berry Gordy approached Smokey and asked to hear more?

Well, actually this man, which we weren't sure if he was, how old he was or anything, because he looked very young. He was walking around and he noticed our group and he, uh, came over and talked, and he asked Smokey, where'd you get those songs? Are these original songs. And he said yes they are. And he said do you have more of those songs? He said, yes. Well, can you show them to me. Well, he had a little spiral notebook that you use in school, and it had about a hundred songs in it. And he looked, and he said, hmm, this is kind of interesting. So at that point we really felt that Berry was really only interested in, um, Smokey, rather than the group. But I guess that wasn't so, as it's told in Berry's book, he was really interested in the girl. But he called and asked if I was dating anyone, and was I in love, and uh, who was the person? And I gave him all those answers, and I said yes, yes, and the person is Smokey. And he said, oh, that's nice, and he hung up the phone. I never knew that that was going to be something he emphasized in his book. And it does say that he talked to Smokey about it, because Smokey was just telling him, oh, God, I'm just so excited that you're looking at our group and that you're doing so much for us. And he said, I have to really confess. It really wasn't you. It was Claudette. And he said, oh yeah, she told me about that. Because you know when you're young, you tell everything, I mean absolutely everything.

What was your impression of Berry Gordy. He must have been in his late 20s, 20 years old or so then. Did he strike you as very strong person? What was the striking thing?

Well, I think when I first saw Berry, I, um, didn't pay any real attention to him. Smokey was the one actually who knew who Berry was. He knew the name by listening, I shouldn't say listening, he was looking at the, all the record labels. Smokey was the kind of person that would look to see who was the writer of these songs that were played. And that's how he knew who Berry was. I did not know. I just thought he was someone in the studio just walking around. So it didn't really strike me as either strong or weak. He was just seemingly a very nice guy. I didn't know exactly what he did or actually what his purpose was for being in the studio until later. Later I found out.

Tell me next about the first song you cut for Berry.

Tell me briefly about "Got A Job" and how that came about.

Well, "Got A Job" actually was written by Smokey, and it was actually an answer song to the tune, "Get A Job." And that was really a popular song at the time. And we decided that we were going to record it, and we did, and actually it was leased out to End Record labels, which is, was George Goldner at the time out of New York. Motown had actually at that point had not started. Our very first record, which was "Got A Job" was recorded and released in February 19th, 1958. And the reason that the date looms out in my mind is the fact that both Smokey and Bobby were born on February 19th, so it was a nice present for them on their birthday to have that first record released.

So the first big record was "Shop Around." And maybe you could tell the story of re-recording it.

Well, um, we had gone into the studio, it had been recorded, and actually released. It was on the market playing in Detroit on the radio stations. Uh, Berry Gordy decided that it was, the rhythm was not, the beat was not proper. He just needed a little bit of a change. He called us about three o'clock in the morning, and said, I want all you guys to come back to the studio. Because we need to re-record this song. So everybody gets up, sleepy, lazy, whatever. And uh, we went over and recorded it, and that particular version actually became the number one record for Motown, and the first million seller. So we were of course extremely excited.

What did Berry want to do to change it, and what do you feel made, turned the song into a hit.

Well, actually, probably Berry was the piano player… so he had his own idea I guess that would make it, uh, but … is a lot different. It is on our boxed set now, the 35th anniversary edition, which was just released. And they're both versions on the set, so if you take a listen, you'll be able to really hear the difference.

Did that tell you something about Berry Gordy's instincts? That he had an idea of what would --

Well, I think even prior to that. Once I really got to know him, he seemed to really be able to pick out those hits. Whether it was on other record labels, other artists, he just had a really great knack for music. And really fine tuning songs. For Smokey as well as the other writers, what he would do is when they were writing songs, he would look them over and tell them that it needs to tell a complete story. Not just I love you baby, and then you go into the trees where it's green or whatever was going on. And I think that's one of the successes that happened for all the Motown writers, in terms of probably today. Uh, if they were to write a song it would tell a complete story. And that's why I believe these tunes have stood like the test of time. And that in this year they're still playing some of those same songs.

Let's talk about when the Miracles played the Apollo. And that must have been '62 when you went back with the Motortown Revue. That must have felt good coming back from the other experience earlier.

Well, the very first experience that we had at the Apollo, um, we had not real arrangements. All we really had were lead sheets. And I think we almost didn't get an opportunity to even play that particular date. Because the musicians were really very unhappy that we did not have arrangements, just, you know, lead sheets, just chords. And what happened was Ray Charles happened to be playing there. And he said, what's the problem? He could understand that something was going on while we were trying to rehearse. And the guys were like mumbling, rumbling, grumbling. You know, I don't want to do it. And he said, um, to Smokey, come over and let me hear what we're doing. And so Smokey started singing and the group joined in and he was listening to them. And what he did was he had one of his sidemen sit down and write out an arrangement for us so that we could be able to play the date. Because otherwise the guys were not going to play. And our act, though, as I view it today, it was really probably amusing. What we did is, we thought we had a real great routine. They'd say, and now the Apollo presents the Miracles. And three would come from one side, and two would come from the other side, and by the time we'd meet in the center we would stand and clap for about the next 18 bars. Well, that was actually our routine. We had practiced that over and over again. Not recognizing that was actually taking a tremendous amount of time. That in that time we probably could have finished a song and been off the stage and someone else could've been on. So we learned a lot. Also, Jerry Butler was there, and he was showing us how we should hold our hands in terms of when you're singing, not to just say, wahh. To just be kind of more graceful, pull them in whatever. So I look at them and I credit them a lot for what happened, you know, with us at that time. Ray Charles probably is, I don't know if he even knows how much we over the years really and truly appreciated what he did for us at that time. Because had he not done that, I don't know if the Miracles would have had another opportunity.

But when you went back with the Motortown Revue in '62 that was a very different experience. I was wondering if between the dates, if you had refined your act or gotten more advice. This was before the days that Cholly Atkins was there.

So how had the group matured when you went back to the Apollo in '62?

Well, I think the difference is, we had had some experience. By now we had traveled around the road for several years, even though after that first engagement we only probably we were off for approximately a good year. And in that time we were hopefully fine tuning our act, trying to do some of the things that we had seen other acts do in terms of polishing it up. And when we went back to the Apollo, of course we had had "Shop Around" and it had become a number one record around the country. Actually it was number two. The Beatles that year beat us out, they were number one. So it really didn't get to number one, it was only number two, uh, nationally. But number one on the I guess they called it the soul charts.

What did it mean in those days to polish up the act? Were you, dance steps?

I think a little bit of everything. I think what you do is make sure that your sound was proper, that everyone was blending, that, you know, especially as far as the background that we didn't overshadow the lead singer, that we weren't singing so loud or getting so carried away that you couldn't hear him. So we tried to have a balance where you could hear both, uh, the group and the lead singer. Because of course the lead singer does carry the melody and that is important in terms of someone hearing what they have to say.

Can you talk a little bit about the spirit of competition within Motown. Were you competing with other groups to get songs to do, was Smokey competing with other writers to get songs out there.

For our group it was a little different than it was for the rest of the acts. Number one, Smokey was a songwriter and he wrote, at that time, almost, I'd say 99 percent of our songs. So we really basically worked with Smokey most of the time. And uh, it wasn't the same as it was with other acts who had to get songs from other writers, or whatever Berry suggested or whatever. So it was a bit different. The Miracles had been on the road quite a few years before the other acts had even began. So it was something like we considered ourselves the mothers, the mother and father of the rest of the people who were coming in, even though we were all around the same age. But we had had a little bit of experience by getting out there, traveling around the country and meeting other acts that were at this time world renowned. And we had done what was called the chitlin’ circuit. We had been at all the theaters by this time. We had been to the Apollo, which is in New York. We had been to the Royal which is in Baltimore. We had been to the Regal which is in Chicago. We had been to the Howard in Washington, D.C. So that was a big circle that uh, many of the artists did at that particular time. So we had gone several times and fortunately been really well received, especially the Apollo. The Apollo is a tough audience. And they either like you or they don't. And a lot of the acts never even get a second chance. So we felt that it was just a real blessing that we were able to come again, and that each time that we went they just received us really well. Because they didn't always do that. Especially sometimes when there was a girl in the group with guys, because many times, the audiences were mainly female. And with that sometimes they didn't want to see a girl. Because they had their idea, or their minds set that this was going to be their guy. And when they discovered that Smokey and I were married, um, it actually did not hurt the group as everyone thought perhaps it would.

In the film that I've seen of that '62 show at the Apollo, Smokey is really working the audience, he's holding out the microphone for them to sing. I mean it must have been a wonderful feeling to know that your song was that well known.

Oh, yeah, it was a great feeling, and a wonderful experience as well. Because I'd never felt or never knew that we'd get to that point. I thought that after we had done probably the first time the Apollo and that circuit, that that was going to be it. I really did not think that we were going to have the opportunity, because it hadn't happened really before. Uh, for people in Detroit, there were many acts I'm sure who were much more talented than we were, probably could dance better, sing better. And they hadn't had the opportunity to be able to become what was considered stars. So I didn't know if we would do that either. So it was, it was just a mindboggling experience actually.